In defense of nihilism

Aha! Bated breath. Or is that baited breath

Why, I do declare, you maybe getting warmer. Flawed though it is, it is rescued in dramatic fashion near the end with the "No syncophants" statement. This is as good a paraphrase as I have yet heard of the reason for giving free will.I am curious as to what methodology will be employed to restore the situation. God employed sheer genius. What can Robin do I wonder Any chance you could draw out the motivation a little further too. There is some serious stuff going on here but we're lacking on some character building. We need to know why as well as how.

No problems. I suffer from impatience too. But I've all eternity so shouldn't really be.Its not that the writings bad but there will be difficulty forming this wrathful/graceful character in such a way as to make sense.If you ever do, it means you know God

The Lord wants you very badly. He also has a very good sense of humor.Look what he did to Saul/Paul.It would be great if you did turn. You would make a great evangeliser. And no one would be more surprised than youOnce you'd came down to earth again, you'd have a great laugh with him about it.

Not any more I don't... Rather than cancel out, there is a movement from a position of fear-although malfunction seems to me to be a better word - in which fear nestles (the non-Christians position) to to a position of hope (the Christians position). This is not blind hope - more like the way a child with loving parents looks forward with hope to Christmas morning.Of course there are non-Christians who don't malfunction in the sense that everything seems rosy most of the time. But given that they cannot know how they are meant to function they have nothing objective (other than worlds values) to measure their well functioning against. So they cannot know if they are functioning correctly."it is normal to have a primeval fear of death" they might say. But this is malfunction compared to a Christian who has no need to fear (and may indeed look forward to) death. The non-Christian may look forward to death but not in the sense that there is anything better to look forward to but simply to not exist as that is deemded better than existance

I suppose your right in a sense.Imagine however that you, like me, were someone for whom total financial security has yet to be attained. The level of worry will vary in intensity depending on the situation with regard to employment, mortage arrears, back to school expenses etc, level of Christmas bonus etc. But it will always raise its headWhen the Christian worries he is like a person who has spent their life in the above situation but who has now won the lotto. Force of habit means that they forget momemtarily that they have nothing more to worry about financially and the go back to the habits of a lifetime.Then they remember that in fact the are lotto winners and that they have in fact nothing to worry about. This process of living this reality - "don't worry" - all the time is one which Christians must learn. Paul wrote (sitting in a jail cell)"For I have learned the secret of contentment in any situation. When I live with God"Whereas the level of worry in a non-Christian is a complete function of the circumstances of their life, the Christian, as a function of how much he is prepared to listen and learn, is on a path towards a life of less and less worry. He has won the lotto - he must now remember that he has won the lotto. And the biggest worry of all, fear of the unknown in Death - can become no worry at all."Oh death where is your sting, Oh grave where is your victory?"Consistant with the characteristices one would expect of a loving father, God goes through a lot of trouble to assuage a believers natural habit of worrying and fearing. He tells us to 'fear not' all of 366 times. That's once for every day of the week - including leap years

I wonder what gramps would have said about your bare-neckked assertion that the mind resides in places where the fMRI doth shine. In order to measure peace of mind, one would presumably have to have some knowledge of where it is. They wouldn't be much in the way of religions if they didn't. But all of them ask you to do this that and the other in order to get this idyllic afterlife. And they won't tell you how you can know if you've managed to hop over whatever height they set the bar at. You might reach enlightenment, but you might have to go around on the wheel of life a few more times. As what, well that isn't specified and you cannot know. Peace with the complete unknown? Hmmm. Or maybe when the god of the weighing scales tallies your deeds up you'll find out that the bad actually outweighs the good and it ain't gonna be 70 beautiful women attending to your every need. Peace...hmmmChristianity is unique in that it offers to let you know now where you are going for sure. No messing about the worry while-u-wait offered by Religion

Paul put it in even stronger terms... He wasn't in any doubt about it and this verse shouldn't be read that he was in any doubt. But he makes the point you make. Christianity (or any other belief system) if true, is the most significant thing a person can make a decision about. That can equally be said of atheistic beliefs.Thus: get your belief system straight in your head then live accordingly. If for example a person was absolutely sure that nihilism was the was way it was then they can go about their lives sure in the knowledge that whatever they do has no ultimate meaning and they are completely free (in so far as society will permit them) to do what they want.The problem I suppose with nihilism or athiesm or materialism or existentialism or with the worlds Religions - is that none offer the person any degree of certainty that the track they are on is absolutely true. They all offer partial proofs of that which lies at the core of them. Neither scienctific theory or sense-making religious doctrine are proofs in and of themselves. For the person who decides they need a bit more than that, none of these will truly satisfy.And it is precisely this aspect that forms the great strength of Christianity. It is this which makes it unique. Sure there is the bible - but that can be argued hither and thither with about as much concrete conclusion as the debate about Evolution. But one thing is reasonably agreed upon. And that is that God steps into a persons life. There is too much evidence to deny this claim the bible makes:You're no dummy Robin. In order for you to truly believe, God would have to overcome all the phsycological, emotional, rational and reasonable objections you could raise. He would have to give you proof of his existance of an order that makes you sure. So sure that all your objections would evaporate like morning dew. Read Paul on the road to Damascus. On his way to round up Christians for jail or killing. In a couple of seconds it's... "Yes Lord" He doesn't sound like a guy who remained to be convinced. And that is reaction of all who come face-to-face (so to speak) with God in the bible. They all fall flat on their faces.Is it true? Well if it is, then fall-on-your-face levels of proof would be necessary. Only Christianity claims to offer this.Think about it an you'll see that of all the myriad of belief systems open to a person, this one is the only one that offers thatThis one is the only one where you have no positive part to play in your salvation.This is the only one where God means to have a personal, one to one relationship with you. Think about the others. The don't talk of personal gods. Those gods are remote. You may worship, pray, do good deeds and all the rest. But you do not relate to them. And they do not relate to you.This is the only one where God promises that if he once comes in he will never leave. Ever. No matter what you do.And the only problem is that folk won't let him in. Its a oft-used if incorrect (in context) verse but it kind of says it all. Revelation 3:20 - Jesus talking"Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should open the door then I will come in a dine with him and he with me"Like I say, this verse is not intended for the non-believer it is for the believer. What needs to be removed is the implication that you do something to get into this relationship. You don't. Well maybe in a kind of a way. All you have to do is want him. And if you do, it will only be an infitesimal fraction of how much he wants you. Remember this prayer. I prayed it once.Lord I don't want you
I don't even want to want you
But I want to want to want youHe knows you think your far away. I was that far away the moment before I believed. But he doesn't mind how far you think you are. He is right there. He is that big. He loves you that much.

I got into a discussion before and was told that there is no mind without cognitive function. I felt (and it never got to a conclusion to the contrary) that cognitive function are consequences of the mind. If you start disconnecting cognitive function all that happens is that cognitive statements (which may be measured) such as:"I am happy" reduces simply to"I am..."I am is not reliant on any cognitive function we can measure. How do you get a person to say "I am not" afterall. The juries out for want of a way to test for it ( call it "abiogensis problematics") Maybe Christian based Religions do so but Christianity doesn't. Christianity says believe. But it doesn't for one moment say that the belief is a blind belief. Blind belief is illogical and irrational. One cannot truly believe what one has no absolute proof for. Christianity offers that. If you don't have it you cannot be sure sure. You may be a Christian then but if you want to be sure you are then God needs to prove himself to you in some incontrovertible way. A way that leaves no doubt. The others do NOT offer certainty We get back into the problem of how one can ascertain who is and isn't a Christian in order to measure 'peace levels' I would suggest that someone calling themselves a Christian should be taken with a pinch of salt. That this makes evaluating them on a scientific basis somewhat problematic there is no excuse to fiddle the experiment in order to get a result. Another problem here with definition. The peace on offer is a "peace which surpasses all understanding" I used to be very content with my old Suzuki 200. But then I had no reason not to be. It would have taken a spin on a Fazer 1000 to get me to realise what I was missing.As with morals, in order to evaluate peace in any quantitive way one would have to have some absolute standard of peace against which to measure a individuals level of peace.You may be riding a Suzuki 200 peace. And it might suit you perfectly. You can't miss what you've never had though.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Dec-2005 10:27 PM

If I could rephrase. I would say that your inate humanity outweighs your adherence to a life philosophy. Following the consequences of nihilism to their logical conclusions would I suggest, lead to insanity. Something about humans tends towards life and health in amonsgt the ability to self-destruct.It could be that we have evolved this way or it could be the scent of something God-given. Either way, only the most persistant and single-minded nihilist would cut the thread that keeps them from plummeting into the abyss.I think less that it is inconsistant for a nihilist to adhere to a moral standard and more that it is sensible. If nihilism is true then it's whatever floats your boat. No one else can point to anything objective to show you that you should do otherwise.Like, sanity is fun

God doesn't require you to understand science. He doesn't even require that you understand the bible. The bible is spiritually discerned and until that part is plugged in the light won't shine. Everyone is a spiritual dummy (spiritually dead is more accurate) until God turns on the light. One may examine the bible technically (theology) but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. If it did, then only bright people could go to heaven. What about the illiterate and the stupid?When I say you're no dummy I mean you are bright enough not to be duped by something that man could make up. The level of proof necessary to say (and know) "I believe" could not be foisted upon you by a man-level arguement. Some can be, but I don't think you could be. You'd spot it for what it was. Sure, you don't have the 'comfort' of Religion but maybe your like me, I preferred the lonliness of no- belief to the comfort of a pseudo-belief.If you did turn, then you'd have the benefit of a relative blank slate. No Religious hang ups to worry about. It is a blessing That's what happens. It's different for different folks. Not everyone gets struck blind. But the absoluteness and positiveness can be the same. You know because you know because you know. It is, and must be the standard before a person can truly say "I believe" Yup, that what I'm saying. But in a kind of a way it only matters if your certain for yourself. Proving your certainty to another is impossible. Someone disproving your certainty too. But no one offers a personal, one on one relationship with their god. And it follows why they don't. If they did then the god would have to turn up. This wouldn't bode well for the longevity of the Religion in question - assuming it is a false one.Note that someone may know they are a Christian but not be sure that salvation is a certainty. This doesn't affect the certainty of their salvation in the least. Positionally they have been translated from death to life. that is the essence of it. They are citizens - period That they get the doctrine fully is not essential - otherwise salvation depends on mans ability to get it. Which is not the gospel. God does the saving not mans efforts or smarts.All man can do is refuse Gods gift. It is offered to all. A person won't of course know it is Gods gift they are refusing. But he will present choice for him/against him. And we are given the ability to make a free-choice to allow ourselves to be drawn in his direction or to pull away from him. God does not test beyond endurance. He doesn't say things like "Robin - if you stop drinking for a week then I'll consider that to be you pulling yourself in my direction"It happens at a different level than that. That which your heart wants. Watch the two sides at work (God drawing, Satan/your dead self pulling away) Watch closely your reaction next time God pulls. You'll be faced with a situation and you will have a moment where you know what the correct action to take is. Watch as this quite voice is dismissed and you choose for the incorrect action. I'm not saying this is a pull-away and God marks a debit on his card. It's just a way to observe the tug going on. At the end of the day it's not about merits/demerits, it's about your hearts response to things. Read Romans 7:7 to end again - especially 17-24. This is God using the law to convict us we are sinners. If you feel miserable about the fact that you cannot help do what you do and wish that you didn't do it then you empathise with the man in Romans 7. Note that his desparation isn't a whinging whining, self focussed desparation. Its a desparation of one who knows what right is (purely because it is RIGHT) and knows he does wrong. And despairs of itIt is not necessary to know that this right comes from God. It is sufficient to know (acknowledge in ones heart) that however it may be true, right is in fact an absolute entity. What one says in public is irrelevant. God only saves the lost afterall. And where would the lost be without a bagful of alternative philosophies to help them maintain that stateThis message has been edited by iano, 06-Dec-2005 06:50 PM

What you seem to imply here is something along the lines of "I read the bible and it makes no sense to me rationally - its full of contradictions as well. How could I be blamed for not accepting blindly what it says. If God gave me reason then this is what it produced. I couldn't help it"If that was the case then you would be right. A just God would have to 'let you off' for it.But the call doesn't happen at rational level. It happens at heart (or soul) level. And its not that you refuse to comply in a sense that you obey that which the call makes on you - say the call of conscience. God knows that you can't. That you are actually unable to. He is not suprised in the least by it.It is more that something inside you - not rationally explicable - wishes that you could comply and despairs at not being able to. It might be the inability to contain a temper, it could be the inability not to decieve people with lies, it could be the inability not to cheat on your wife. How often have you promised yourself "that I am not, I repeat not, going to do this, that or the other again!" A while passes and the same old prompt comes again and you find yourself unable to resist. One part wanting no, the other part very much wanting yes. Rational. Patently not.Ignoring the call I think means moving towards a direction of excusing the behaviour which is known to be wrong, to justify it by pointing the finger at everyone but oneself. And everytime it is excused it becomes easier to excuse it again, and again, and again. To the point where the dislike of the behaviour starts shifting in direction becomes tolerance of the behaviour to getting to think that there is nothing at all wrong with the bahaviour. Whilst nihilism cannot say there is anything objectively wrong with sex with 4 year olds it is interesting to note an this extreme example where child sex abusers actually don't see anything wrong with their behaviour. When people get to this level of amorality we tend to call the sociopaths. But it's simply a question of the degree to which this self-justification extends.That is the path or direction a person can move in. They may hold it at a level and not descend to the very extremes. Whatever level it is at it requires a certain hardness of heart and self-righteousness to maintain itself."All your (self) righteousness are as filthy rags" God saysGod is calling people in the other direction. And that direction seeks to expose the excuses and self-righteousness for what they are. To reveal the truth about the actions we take, to show us the hurt we cause others. A person doesn't have to work this up in themselves. God does that. And it is their response to that that matters. Either do nothing and let God reveal or deny it and repress it and kill it.If the latter then the person will arrive in some way shape or form at the man in Romans 7. God will have done the work and the person, if they arrive in this place will have done nothing. A very important nothing it must be said.No one comes without struggle. The movement is not a smooth progression in one direction or the other. All will deny and self-excuse and kill off Gods call. It is a question of the degree to which a person says no which decides how far and how fast they move down the slope. And it makes sense that the further a person moves away and the harder their heart gets the less effectual the call becomes.Lets make no mistake here. If a person was to spend a number of years gazing out from a lighthouse and the majesty and infinite evolking nature of the seas and the stars and think for a moment what a creator God would be like should he exist - then they would be humbled. This God should not be presumed to suffer man forever. There does come a time when God will cease to call to a man who persistantly refuses to listen, who has only one answer in repsonse to Gods call - NO. God is God. He won't be taken for a foolEither we come to say "Thy will be done" or God will say to us "Thy will be done"(for what it's worth Robin, I don't think you belong in that latter category. But then I'm not God so I don't know) In fact there are no conditions. All a person has to do is not say No. But even there he helps a person. Forgive all the evangelising but I'm on a bit of a roll.Another thing I noted after-the-fact of being saved was the following. God presents situations where he makes is as possible to say yes and it is for us to say no. Watch out for situations that may occur where something comes up which involves something directly or indirectly to do with God. It could be a tv programme, it could be a poster advertising an evening course, it could be a street preacher you come across. I'm not saying you should go to these things if you really don't. That is you doing the work.But it may occur that your wandering along and something like that pops up. Your first reaction is "Hmm, that sound interesting, I think I'll...." then will come the "aah bollox - its just all that EvC indoctrination crap" If you examine it you will see there is no good reason not to follow up. There is nothing particularily in the way of you actually doing it. Except No for No's sake

My computer is dogslow today so I won't go back and see what I said. Let me clarify though what I meant (or should have said I meant)Man can do nothing at all to effect his salvation. Every effectual aspect of salvation is carried out by God. He is the one who calls, he is the one who convicts a person of their sin, he is the one who provides the evidence that lets us believe, he is the one who gives us the ability to understand that his word makes perfect sense, he is the one who carries out the various mechanical/legal aspects involved with salvation. In that sense there is no condition - because there is nothing a man can do to effect even the slightest bit of his being saved. Saying no is an active decision on our part. The right way is presented to us and we know it is the right way. It is not that man has to accept that it is the right way - he knows it is without having to make any decision at all about it. Saying no is denying what is true. Thus, if a person is lost - it is through a decision (or series of decisions on their part)Consider it as a person free falling from earth without a parachute. That is the default position of every person born. God didn't make it that way, Adam did (and we all share his spiritual genes, dead to God genes)God tries to place a parachute on us so that we won't go SPLAT. Man does nothing to put the parachute in place, there is no condition man has to fulfill in order to have God attempt to do that. God wants that none should perish and he attempts to fix a parachute to everybodyBut man can shrug off the parachute if he likes.Salvation is from God, offered without condition. Damnation is of man - by own free choice

Soul, if it exists, is not emotion so I don't hold that we should pay attention to our emotions. If right and wrong came from our emotions and our emotions vary then right and wrong will vary.Whilst many will point to brain research and the fact that drugs influence emotions and thus emotions has some mechanical relationship to the function of our mechanical brains they cannot do the same with mind. There is something about the location of the mind which refuses to be pinned down to the simply mechanical. As I have said before, you may analyse the mechanical basis for "I am happy" but not "I am"And it is in the "I am" that which sits above emotion and reason which is where I suggest soul resides. And the "I am" is what knows that something is right - despite all the conditioning that goes on to affect the lower levels. The conditioning may overrule the "I am" but it is a subjective overuling an absolute No it doesn't. There is no objective proof of a universal right and wrong. No objective in the sense that man can provide a proof instead of innumerable theories and debates. No, if an absolute truth is to be proven, it will be proven only to oneselfs satisfaction. I know it to be true because I just know it. Failing God coming down and proving it for us, there is no better way to prove it.And when it comes down to it, all that matters is that we are satisfied ourselves that that is the case. Who cares what anyone else thinks (something shared by both Christianity and Nihilism - although I'll warrant the Nihilist would suffer being thrown to lions in his steadfastness)?# But none can do more than scratch on the surface as to why this is the case. Its theory piled on theories the whole way down. It really is for you to decide for yourself Robin - as you hold to be the case.Deny that in you which suggests (beyond the cut and thrust of debate) that there is such thing as an absolute right and an absolute wrong. To persist in denying that God is the only thing potentially available which could hope to explain it, not with never-to-end theory - but fullyPersist in denying or......follow where it is trying to lead you

Nope (he said with fingers crossed). God knows every single thing that happens - and what will happen. Nothing happens without his 'assenting' to it (I use the word cautiously). He knows when a swallow falls from the air and he knows how many hairs that are on my head (you wouldn't have to be omniescent to know that in my case - I looked at the fine head of hair you had - in 2002 at least and....envied). When I die it will be on the day God has determined that I dieHe knows if you will turn to him at some point and if you won't. It's a tricky subject and I can't say I've developed much in the way of understanding of it. Pre-destination vs free choice etc. I'm only starting to get my follically-challenged head around it.I only a young-un in Christ. Spiritual milk is what I'm on still...