The Origin of Novelty

Lets start with skin and sunlight: when you are out in sunlight can you tell which skin cells "see" sunlight and which don't?Using the sensation of sunlight can you turn to face where the sun is?Can a blind person tell where the sun is?Enjoy.

Hi broken180, and welcome to the fray. No, they are based on observations of living organisms. As noted in Message 7:

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One of the best understood evolutionary pathways is the eye. The website for Encyclopedia Britannica has a very nice graphic showing various stages in the process, including an example of a currently living organism for each stage.

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When we go to that site it lists some of the extant species with such developments. These are not the only species that exhibit these intermediate developments either. What is "information"?The mechanism that leads to new genetic traits/features/functions is mutation. Mutations add variety to the breeding population, and selection winnows out the variations that are not as beneficial to the organisms. No, natural selection does not "mix up" genes, it acts on the phenotype of individuals, and those that survive to breed more than the others in the population contribute more of their genes to the next generation. What is "information"?Enjoy

As noted by others, dimpled skin could be a different mutation, and all you need is a mutation for a dimple occurring where you have skin sensitive to light to combine the two. Think of concentration rather than focus. Have you ever used a reflector to concentrate sunlight on your face for tanning? Enjoy

Denial of the many extensive explanations doesn't make them go away, it just shows willful ignorance and the desire to remain underinformed.Opinion doesn't change reality. In reality we see there are many different kinds of sensors for light, from patch to dimple to cup to pin-hole, etc etc etc. No, it doesn't make it easier to feel the sunlight, it makes it easier to tell the direction the sunlight is coming from. This is an improvement in the information for the organism over just telling whether or not there is sunlight. A body covered with dimples and a body with light sensitive skin patches puts the two components together, and positive selection for an improved trait increases the frequency of the light sensitive dimple in the population -- evolution occurs. If you find ignorance is funny. I find it pathetic, when learning is so much fun and so readily available. The question is which is better at telling you the direction of the sunlight. If the dimple allows you to tell the direction of the sun so you can move towards it to be in more sunlight, then you are more likely to meet up with other similar individuals doing the same thing.Positive selection then improves the trait: the dimple deepens into a cup, where the sides can be in shadow if the cup is not pointed towards the sun, this increases directional sensing. Perhaps you should start listening then, and asking questions when you don't understand, rather than going off half-cocked, and apparently reveling in ignorance.stage 1: sense presence\absence of sunlight
stage 2: sense direction of sunlight Actually it happens by selection of beneficial traits within breeding populations in response the ecological challenges and opportunities ... you know ... evolution. We've already gone from dimple to cup by this simple process.The deeper the cup gets the better it is at sensing the direction of the sunlight. You can mimic this process by holding different length tubes, each with a piece of paper over the bottom end, and see how accurately they point to the sun when the bottom lights up. Make them 1/4" deep. 1" deep and 2" deep, cut from toilet-paper rolls.Next divide the bottom into quarters and see if you can point the tube towards the sun just by noting which patches are lit and which are in shade.Increased directional sensitivity will drive selection for closing the top of the cup into smaller and smaller opening, while at the same time dividing the sensitive patch into smaller sections that cover the bottom of the cup, so the bottom spreads out under the small opening -- these small sections then act as independent on-off sensors for light direction, improving the sensitivity of the directional response.The eye develops in a watery environment, so it starts out filled with liquid, the optic nerve grows from the skin nerves as they develop from light sensitive patches into retinal cells. The brain also develops to process the information from the different sensor cells so that it knows where the brighter light is and discern grades of light and shade. This process does not involve mutations so much as refining the use already there for processing nerve signals.As this process continues an amazing thing happens: suddenly, rather than just sensing direction, an emergent property of the small opening at the top -- caused by the physics of light -- turns it from blurred light patch into an image. This is how pin-hole cameras work - it isn't a magical operation of the skin cells, but a fact of physics that makes the image form.Again you can mimic this by taking a piece of cardboard and making a set of holes from 1/4" diameter down to pin-hole size. Hold the cardboard perpendicular to sunlight and take a sheet of paper to move away from the cardboard until the images change from blurred to focused. You will note that the smaller the hole, the better the image can be made. Do it on a cloudy day and you can form images of the clouds passing in front of the sun.Eclipse Viewerstage 3: sensing imagesBy changing the distance from the pin-hole to the retinal skin patches the image can be focused for different distances, and this just requires muscles to move the focal plane relative to the pinhole.We now have an eye that can sense light, sense the direction of light, and form an image from light. For all intents and purposes this is a fully functional eye, as observed in the Nauteloids.This is not magic nor is it a fortuitous string of many mutations, rather it is selection of existing traits that improve as mutations enhance the existing system. Beginning in a water environment they start out filled with liquid. Yep, and a pretty good job too, imho. Such a rational step-by-step process, along with objective evidence of organism demonstrating the different stages (and types) of eye formation/s. Ah, hanging your rejection on the fact that very few soft tissues fossilize, plus ignorant straw man arguments, I see. Unfortunately, not only are there some fossils (nauteloids in particular), but we also have many existing organisms with these features, demonstrating that their ecological fitness is improved by the rudimentary light sensing patches and pinhole eyes.More argument from incredulity, rather than considering the rationale behind these scenarios. In your opinion. It is also a very good source for studying creationist denial and willful ignorance and the gymnastics they go through to pretend that evolution doesn't work. And yet the theory has proven accurate in explaining the diversity of life as we know it. Curiously, that is all that is asked of this theory.The funny thing about this is that not only has the eye evolved, but eyes have evolved independently many times, with different eyes evolving in different branches of hereditary descent, where we can fit organisms into nested hierarchies based on their eyes.Finally, the validity of evolution does not depend on explaining the development of the eye in minute detail, it just depends of being the best explanation for the diversity of life as we know it. Curiously, there are not even any close contenders.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : clrtyEdited by RAZD, : ...

Have you tried the cup experiments I suggested in Message 102? Curiously, nobody has argued that clavicles would develop into eyes. Nor is there any selective pressure to do so, when eyes already exist in animals with foreheads and clavicles.I wonder where you ever came up with this straw man? Or more to the point, why?Enjoy

Do you think that could be due to the overwhelming signal you get from the rest of your light sensing equipment?Do you think that this invalidates the experiment designed to show you a small differential in sensing for an organism that has no other eyes?The point is to demonstrate that direction can be ascertained in this manner. Again the issue is not focus but direction.Seeing as the bellybutton only senses the sun when in direct alignment with the hole while the forehead is essentially omni-directional then yes I would expect to get better direction information from the hole\bellybutton. Again, the issue here is not focus but direction. Except that, amusingly, all you have demonstrated is a failure to do the experiment as suggested and a failure to understand the point of the experiment.Enjoy.

Amusingly, here is a fish with a random mutation -- an extra eye, not just a cornea or pupil. 3-eyed fish found in nuclear lake Of course there is a biological explanation for how the whole eye was caused by a mutation. (See Hox genes) - which is also why you don't normally see corneas popping up everywhere ... And what you see in the development of the eye from scratch is that it is not accomplished in a single mutation, but a series of refinements -- each mutation that benefits the organism gets selected for, and this takes the eye development to the next step.Step 1: detect light
Step 2: detect direction of light
Step 3: detect imageThis is how evolution develops novel features over generations.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : ...Edited by RAZD, : ...

Perhaps there is a reason for that, having to do with understanding how evolution works; By building up gradually from primitive systems to highly derived systems via the evolutionary two-step feedback response system that is repeated in each generation: Like walking on first one foot and then the next. Random variation and then fitness selection, step by step slowly he turns ... But it is simple steps, simple to achieve genetically and simple to achieve in the phenotype that then subjects it to selection.It seems you keep forgetting\omitting\denying the selection process that makes each subsequent step dependent on the fitness of the previous step, building on previous evolutionary steps. Step by step. Random variation and then selection for fitness, over time builds up these derived systems from primitive ones.If you are dealt a 5-card hand and continually discard anything not a heart, to be replaced by new cards, are you likely to end up with an all heart hand or one that is a complete jumble?Enjoy.

Yep, and the thought was: boy does that demonstrate evolution rather than design or cryptic genes.It is what would be predicted by evolutionary theory, because mutations are random, while natural selection would favor any change that resulted in darker skin\fur.Enjoy

Here is my favorite example (from Understanding Evolution - Your one-stop source for information on evolution):

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North American Flying Squirrel (placental mammal) and Australian Sugar Glider (marsupial)Note that this demonstrates that evolution of novel features has occurred in both lineages, rather than any pre-packaged or cryptic genetics AND rather than any design reuse of genes ...EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : topicEdited by RAZD, : image

There are two existing threads on Schwartz and his ... views "Sudden Origins" by Jeffery H Schwartzand Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" -- see Message 38 for his comments ...Enjoy