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Author Topic:   The Nature of Scepticism
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 145 of 271 (692480)
03-03-2013 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
03-03-2013 3:59 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
But cause and effect is itself derived from observation.
It's not necessary to treat it as an axiom. Indeed both relativity and QM have asked serious questions of our notions of causality.
No.
I don't think you have thought this through sufficiently.
We are developing Theories through empirical observation about behaviors that we "assume" (axiom) for every Effect there must be a Cause.
Hence we point to each Cause as supporting our initial axiom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 3:59 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 8:17 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 148 of 271 (692516)
03-04-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Straggler
03-04-2013 8:33 AM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
So why not use the method Galileo used to overturn this axiom as a method of knowledge acquisition rather than messing around with axioms in the first place?
?
Galileo used the axiom that "Seeing is believing," (i.e.; empiricism).
Socrates, of course, doubted that postulate and said, "Belive nothing you hear and only half of what you see."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 8:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 12:31 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 165 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2013 12:08 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 150 of 271 (692521)
03-04-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
03-04-2013 8:17 AM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
If you are treating common notions of cause and effect is an axiom then I would suggest that it is one of those axioms that should be discarded as having been found to be wanting as compared to reality.
Isn't that EXACTLY why Feynman says the Wave/particle observation is the fundamental issue for Physics in this next century???
"Because it demonstrates the fundamental limitation of the ability of the observer to predict experimental results, (Effects), Richard Feynman called it "a phenomenon which is impossible... to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics."
"In reality, it contains the only mystery," (to our premise of Cause/Effect????)
The very heart of modern physics is this threat to the initial science axiom, of Cause/Effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 8:17 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 166 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2013 12:14 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 151 of 271 (692523)
03-04-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Straggler
03-04-2013 12:31 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Kof writes:
Seeing is believing
Straggler:
That would be nave empiricism.
You need review the meaning of Empiricism, first.
And then, yes, as you expand upon the simple meaning of relying upon observation, not naive at all,... we can/could add many of the sophisticated reassurances that confirm that we are, indeed, seeing what we thought we saw, like asking peers to review the experiement.
Nevertheless, Empiricism is exactly what I said it is:
empiricism /emˈpirəˌsizəm/
Noun
1.The theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience.
2.Practice based on experiment and observation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 12:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 1:08 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 154 of 271 (692526)
03-04-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-15-2013 1:54 PM


...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Straggler:
"that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true". - Bertrand Russell, Introduction to Sceptical Essays
1) Is this an accurate reflection of scepticism?
2) Is it the approach taken by science?
3) Is it paradoxical and subversive?
Now after having brought you up to this point, in regard to what constitutes "grounds,"...
... I answer your OP again.
Russell ignored the necessity incumbent upon himself, to agree to some axiomatic discipline wherein his scepticism could be put to the test of a Proof.
Hence,
1) No, it is not.
2) No, it is not.
3) Yes, it is paradoxical that Russell would suggest he is sceptical while ignoring the reason we have developed disciplines exactly for the purpose of showing people like him how reasoning can establish truth.
An yes, it is subversive to humanity to support the contention that everything can be doubted at a personal and subjective level simply because one refuses to ground his thinking in one or another of the disciplines of Knowledge.
That is to subvert the very premise that we can think our way through life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-15-2013 1:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 7:51 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 157 of 271 (692585)
03-05-2013 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
03-05-2013 7:51 AM


Re: ...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Why would/should one care what his adversary in this discussion thinks about the arguments that corrected you in every case?
I consider the matter closed from this side, and you may wallow in your attempts to resurrect any face serving come backs, imho.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 7:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 11:35 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
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