Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The moral implications of evolution, and their discontents.
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 124 (438618)
12-05-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
12-05-2007 1:57 PM


What does any of that have to do with the topic?
Evolution presupposes Materialism to be true and Creationism-Design to be false. This is the philosophical foundation that natural selection is built upon. In other words, natural selection or perpetual material causation from living and non-living realities is postulated because Divine causation is assumed to be untrue.
What does that have to do with morality?
Evolution IS BUILT on a philosophical assumption that causation is linear and never vertical. Once the assumption is made no evidence can ever contradict because the decision has already been made that causation is linear and material and never vertical and Divine.
What does that have to do with morality?
Creationism-Design is just the opposite: we assume causation is vertical because the appearance of design says the same is the work of an invisible Designer.
What does that have to do with morality?
The point is: starting philosophical assumptions determine the interpretation and explanation of evidence. Evolution interpretation and explanation of evidence makes no sense and is false on its face, sustained by the needs of the Atheist worldview and hatred of God and Genesis.
What does that have to do with morality?
Nothing refutes the Cambrian explosion, it corroboates Genesis special creation (vertical) to be absolutely true. This proves natural selection interpretation and explanations to be exactly what they are: a list of facts (#1 thru #6), in and by themselves, and collectively, that do not and could not achieve the claim: the main mechanism that allegedly produced the wonder of nature that we see. The nature that we see is obviously Divinely designed; therefore, causation is vertical. Natural selection defies observation and is but a conglomeration of facts that in no way, shape or form, could have created the organized complexity of nature as a whole or any individual organism.
What does that have to do with morality?
Natural selection is akin to a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, the individual facts in tandem cannot create anything, but the same is classic rhetoric asserting that it can and has.
What does that have to do with morality?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2007 1:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2007 5:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 124 (438693)
12-05-2007 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object
12-05-2007 5:28 PM


Re: What does any of that have to do with the topic?
So substitute "Philosophical Positions" for "Morality" and the question remains?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2007 5:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 124 (439375)
12-08-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 2:53 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
Sure it does. It promotes its own ethics and its own philosophy. Everything sociological in nature must, out of necessity, be ultimately explained by evolution. Think about it.
Nonsense. There is nature and there is nurture.
Morality is a social construct and while moral sensibilities might be said to evolve in a social nature, that is not biological evolution.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 2:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 3:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 124 (439382)
12-08-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 3:17 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
For instance, we've had debates at EvC on morality. The singular answer I receive back from those of an atheistic persuasion is that we evolved feelings of altruism, empathy, etc for a survival-of-the-fittest reason.
But that is unrelated to morality and also a misrepresentation. It is not survival of the fittest, but rather survival.
In addition morality often runs counter to altruism or empathy. Look at the morality laid out in the Bible and you can see example after example of "morality contradicting empathy or altruism".
Morality is just a social construct, nothing more.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 3:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 3:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 124 (439389)
12-08-2007 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 3:52 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
Even if that is so, it all ultimately comes back to nature, does it not? You can't escape that part unless you start attributing intent to God. That seems more than self-evident.
LOL
Why to God?
Why not attribute it to other people?
Only if morals are absolute and you know what that absolute moral is absolutely.
Huh?
Nonsense. What you do is compare some other set of morals to whatever the current accepted set of morals are.
The TOE doesn't enter anywhere.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 3:52 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 8:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 124 (439460)
12-08-2007 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 8:51 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
Okay, fair enough. Not necessarily God. But not to humans.
Why not humans?
Jar, you can't use a moral to explain why morals exist. I'm sure can guess why that is. Therefore evolution, or more explicitly, naturalism, has to ultimately rely on natural phenomena to explain anything.
I didn't. I said that different people in different eras and milieus create different sets of morals. Morals exist as a social construct to minimize intergroup violence.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 8:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 124 (439770)
12-10-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Beretta
12-10-2007 9:39 AM


Re: I guess maybe I don't know the quality of a South African education.
Remember though, evidence that disproves evolution does not add any weight to some other model. If you wish to support ID or Creationism you must present the model that supports those positions.
See How can "Creationism" be supported? for guidance.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Beretta, posted 12-10-2007 9:39 AM Beretta has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 124 (439853)
12-10-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by kuresu
12-10-2007 4:27 PM


Re: Racism and genocide.
There are only two other cases of mass death that I know of that beat Hitler in terms of total dead--Russia and China.
What about the US, and South America?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by kuresu, posted 12-10-2007 4:27 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 12:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 124 (440021)
12-11-2007 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by kuresu
12-11-2007 12:05 AM


Re: Racism and genocide.
Not too diminish what we did, but do we have accurate population figures? Or death figures?
No, they were not really worth counting.
And did we kill as many in the same period of time as those three managed?
Well, just during Andy Jacksons term as President we killed a bunch of them and of course, he had been killing them for decades before.
We may not have been as rapid but we certainly have been more thorough and persistent.
And is South America one country?
At the time of the major genocide it was likely no country.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 12:05 AM kuresu has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024