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Author Topic:   The moral implications of evolution, and their discontents.
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 124 (439374)
12-08-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Chiroptera
12-04-2007 2:03 PM


The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
It is my position that there are no moral, social, or philosophical implications to the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is simply a description of observable phenomena, and the use of those phenomena to explain other observable phenomena.
Perhaps it should be, but there is no question that an entire philosophy of science spawned from it.
Now, it is true that one may use the theory of evolution to inform one's moral or social beliefs. For example, if one's ethics is heavily based on Genesis being literal history, and if the theory of evolution is the correct description of reality, then one is obliged to rethink one's moral positions. But the theory of evolution doesn't promote any particular ethics or philosophy.
Sure it does. It promotes its own ethics and its own philosophy. Everything sociological in nature must, out of necessity, be ultimately explained by evolution. Think about it.
Its a secular catch-all, and if improperly explained, any postulate could be as simple as evolution did it, which, ironically, is no different than saying Goddidit.
Think about the question seriously:
Why do humans possess bigger brains: Evolution.
Why do humans have ethical standards: Evolution.
Why do people tend to be religious: Evolution.
Why do we have DNA: Evolution.
Any question you ask regarding the natural world ultimately has to boil down to some evolutionary process, be it a cosmological evolution, a chemical evolution, or a biological evolution.
I see no difference from that from assuming, ultimately, an intelligence. The sole difference seems to be one is supposedly intentional while the other is capricious.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Chiroptera, posted 12-04-2007 2:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 2:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 77 by Chiroptera, posted 12-08-2007 4:37 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2007 3:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 124 (439378)
12-08-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
12-08-2007 2:59 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
Nonsense. There is nature and there is nurture.
Ah, but nurture makes no sense without nature driving it. The very question of why animals nurture can only be explained through naturalistic mechanisms if one ascribes to a strict version of naturalism.
Morality is a social construct and while moral sensibilities might be said to evolve in a social nature, that is not biological evolution.
If one comes from the other, why not? If certain chemicals dictate feelings as a pretense, then why wouldn't it be?
For instance, we've had debates at EvC on morality. The singular answer I receive back from those of an atheistic persuasion is that we evolved feelings of altruism, empathy, etc for a survival-of-the-fittest reason.
It all goes back to survival -- mindless and droll. The only goal is to survive in naturalism. And the ToE is there to explain the process, or so it is said.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 2:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 3:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 124 (439387)
12-08-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
12-08-2007 3:33 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
It is not survival of the fittest, but rather survival.
Either way its still because of naturalism, so it seems immaterial to the point I was making.
In addition morality often runs counter to altruism or empathy. Look at the morality laid out in the Bible and you can see example after example of "morality contradicting empathy or altruism".
Only if morals are absolute and you know what that absolute moral is absolutely.
Secondly, altruism and empathy are morals, so they can't in any sense run counter. You simply may disagree on what is or isn't moral.
Morality is just a social construct, nothing more.
Even if that is so, it all ultimately comes back to nature, does it not? You can't escape that part unless you start attributing intent to God. That seems more than self-evident.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 3:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 4:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 124 (439453)
12-08-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
12-08-2007 4:01 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
quote:
Even if that is so, it all ultimately comes back to nature, does it not? You can't escape that part unless you start attributing intent to God. That seems more than self-evident.
Why to God? Why not attribute it to other people?
Okay, fair enough. Not necessarily God. But not to humans.
What you do is compare some other set of morals to whatever the current accepted set of morals are.
Jar, you can't use a moral to explain why morals exist. I'm sure can guess why that is. Therefore evolution, or more explicitly, naturalism, has to ultimately rely on natural phenomena to explain anything.
What difference is there from that than saying Goddidit?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 4:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Omnivorous, posted 12-08-2007 8:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-08-2007 9:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 124 (439477)
12-08-2007 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Chiroptera
12-08-2007 4:37 PM


Re: The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism
We try to explain everything in the natural world through the actions of the laws of physics, too. Why do the planets orbit the sun? Because of the laws of physics. Why do hurricanes form in the Atlantic and move toward North America? Because of the laws of physics.
Yes, and likewise, believing in God will still give you these answers as well. The problem is the deeper question of why it is. It only boils down to two simple choices. Either it was intentional or not.
Two entire belief systems are based around this, right? So how can you say that there isn't a general philosophy at the core of naturalism? It seems that much is inescapable.
quote:
The singular answer I receive back from those of an atheistic persuasion is that we evolved feelings of altruism, empathy, etc for a survival-of-the-fittest reason.
Sure, evolution would explain why we have feelings we describe as morality and ethics. But it doesn't, in itself, explain which things should be categorized as "moral" and which things should be categorized as "immoral". That is completely due to social convention and individual conscience, which can and does change from one society to another and from one person to another within each society.
But its completely immaterial to the greater question. For instance, if we were to ask why humans enjoy music, a simple, quick, and true answer would be, because we like it. Well, yes, but does it just stop there? Is there not something deeper at play in all of that, whether you ascribe to theistic or atheistic beliefs?
At the heart of atheism is naturalism, because there are no other explanations by its very definition. So any atheist has to find, as a basic criteria, compelling natural reasons why he does what he does. Any existential, metaphysical, or spiritual questions are automatically ruled out a priori.
What he is left with is nature alone. And even saying that things like morals transmit through sociology is only begging the question. Sociology only makes sense, to a naturalist, in the realm of nature itself.
So if a man does something, it is ultimately attributed to chemical reactions in the brain driving him towards a function. He, like his insect brothers and feline sisters, are creatures of instinct.
In a more appreciable way, people like Dawkins thrive on the philosophy of science. There life's work is completely invested in this basic philosophy.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Chiroptera, posted 12-08-2007 4:37 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2007 10:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 83 by bluegenes, posted 12-08-2007 10:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 90 by Chiroptera, posted 12-09-2007 12:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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