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Junior Member (Idle past 3496 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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The more general point is that there's nothing in the bible that wasn't known at the time it was written.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android |
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes:
all im saying is that belief need not be required to rest on evidence. If belief rested on evidence, it wouldn't be belief, it would be fact.
It can stand alone...subjectively. It can and it does stand alone - that's all it is; subjective. But it's not evidence of anything other than a psychological condition.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: As I have said repeatedly, I can't think of a single thing that would count as supernatural beyond a personal opinion. Surely you can? How about a missing limb regrowing immediately on being touched by a 'healer'. Such a thing could be measurable by science but properly described as miraculous as we understand enough about how cells divide and differentiate for it to be impossible by natural means.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: Again, I would not claim that was supernatural. Then you're using a different language than the rest of us. (Or more likely, just being cussed)Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
he's already answered that,
Jar writes: Again, I would not claim that was supernatural. But he doesn't really mean it; he's just painted himself into a corner. The problem, of course, is that there's no such thing as 'supernatural' so it's just a word with no substance or meaning. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
g'luck ;-)
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: So I see no reason to call regrown limbs either supernatural or artificial. Of course you do. If a Christian 'healer' walked up to a congenitally armless man, touched him and two arms immediately sprouted out of his shoulders, you'd be calling it a miracle like the rest of us. You're just being an arse, for being an arse's sake. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Yes you are. So there.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: A miracle? Sure. But, supernatural? .....and the difference is?
So was it a supernatural god or a natural advanced alien with a natural medical tricorder that had a natural regenerate button? Why make it more difficult than it has to be? This is your everyday human, 21st century healer bloke. There's no tricks, no alien technology; two real, fully functional human arms suddenly pop onto the shoulders of a previously armless man at the touch of the healer's hand. ( And a muttered prayer, obviously.) All fully witnessed and accredited by the James Randi foundation and 100 sceptics of your choosing. The miracle to be performed once a week until you can't think of anything else to test.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
AZPaull3 writes: Big. The one is under the normal bell curve but waaay out there at the pointy end of the right hand tail. The other doesn't exist. If either actually existed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nevertheless, since when was a miracle not supernatural?
The point is that these hypotheticals never exist so there is no point in addressing them. As the supernatural doesn't exist, the ONLY way they can be discussed is hypothetically. I find the reluctance to accept - by both believers and skeptics - an obvious supernatural/miraculous event, strange, to say the least. What are both sides of the argument frightened of here?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I think you and others here are simply having a semantic argument for the sake of it; tying yourself in knots by torturing words and meanings and avoiding some simple facts.
I don't believe any of you - yourself, Az and Jar - would say that the armless man scenario was not a miraculous/supernatural event (and yes, the words do have the same meaning in normal use) if it actually happened in the way I described. It's ludicrously easy to invent hypotheticals where the only possible rational conclusion is supernatural intervention. The only problem here is that the supernatural doesn't exist so we're dealing with a description of the impossible and the absurd. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Ringo writes: You remind me of ICANT talking about the existence of existence. (What colour is colour?) I would agree with you that the supernatural doesn't "exist" but I wouldn't say that nothing could be supernatural. Well anyone can say anything about this stuff because there's no evidence for any of it - and I'm certainly not interested in pseudo-philosophising. I'm mildly interested in why people here can't accept a hypothetical example of an obvious miracle though.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jon writes: No. It would simply be another thing happening in the observable universe for which we had yet to find an explanation. Such has been the history of science. It absolutely wouldn't be. We know how cells replicate and differentiate. We know that limbs do not spontaneously and immediately regenerate. It wouldn't just be something we don't know about yet, it would be something we know enough about to know that it couldn't possibly happen. But why worry about only limbs. Let's have a man with a severed head walk around normally for a month - or anything else you can think of that we KNOW is impossible. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
I suppose there's nothing too stupidly off-planet for a true pedant.
Look we KNOW that a man with a severed head can not walk around as normal for a month. You know it and science knows it. It breaks god knows how many medical certainties that it's not open to sane debate.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Jon writes: What now? Well, so long as it's not only you and the headless guy has stuck around long enough for science to have a good enough look and declare it real, then we re- think everything we thought we knew about everything. Or dance, whichever you prefer.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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