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Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 109 (773742)
12-08-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
12-08-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
Someone will probably pop up and say that one fundamental particle or somesuch is identical to another, but until they do I'll say that there's no such thing as an identical anything is there?

I think that's my cue. All electrons are identical.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 12:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 1:20 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 109 (773927)
12-10-2015 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dogmafood
12-10-2015 7:44 AM


protypical writes:

I guess my question is how do you prove that no hidden variables exist?

This question has come up before and we got some answers back when cavediver and Son Goku used to post here regularly. Here is a partial answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem

quote:
Bell's theorem states that any physical theory that incorporates local realism cannot reproduce all the predictions of quantum mechanical theory. Because numerous experiments agree with the predictions of quantum mechanical theory, and show differences between correlations that could not be explained by local hidden variables, the experimental results have been taken by many as refuting the concept of local realism as an explanation of the physical phenomena under test. For a hidden variable theory, if Bell's conditions are correct, the results that agree with quantum mechanical theory appear to indicate superluminal effects, in contradiction to the principle of locality.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dogmafood, posted 12-10-2015 7:44 AM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dogmafood, posted 12-11-2015 6:48 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 109 (774335)
12-16-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2015 6:41 PM


Re: Two Points...
I'm not saying this solves the problem of determinism. But if Brownian motion is a real thing, and it can be modeled with very simple computer programs that have random numbers generated, then that indicates that there is randomness in the universe despite the nitpick that a computer can't technically produce a random number.

I am having difficulty following your premises here to your conclusion that there is randomness in the universe. Why would we not observe the same thing if the universe were pseudo random with hidden variables just like the random number generator in a computer?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2015 6:41 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 109 (774619)
12-19-2015 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dogmafood
12-19-2015 7:10 PM


Re: Random nature of paradoxical popsicles
Everyone would agree with describing the results of a fair dice throw as random. How many would agree that the results are not strictly determined by the laws of physics?

Everyone would agree that dice rolls are random. But once they see where you are going with the physics, they should want to back out of that agreement. Dice rolls are close enough to random to make allow gambling on the outcome.

On the other hand, nuclear decay timings apparently are truly random with probabilities that are governed by the laws of physics.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dogmafood, posted 12-19-2015 7:10 PM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Dogmafood, posted 12-23-2015 10:28 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 109 (774831)
12-23-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dogmafood
12-23-2015 10:28 AM


Re: Random nature of paradoxical popsicles
Truly random meaning uncaused and random meaning unpredictable. Is that right? How can a truly random process be governed by anything?

Events can be random individually, but in the aggregate lead to predictable behavior. The motion of individual molecules of a gas can be random, but the pressure exerted by the gas on the container might still obey gas laws. Radioactive decay may be completely random on the nuclear scale, but the decay of a gram of radium can still be predicted accurately using half-life equations.

The probability of an event occurring can be mathematically predictable, but the timing of an event on an individual scale can be utterly unpredictable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dogmafood, posted 12-23-2015 10:28 AM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
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