Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9046 total)
157 online now:
AZPaul3, kjsimons, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), nwr (4 members, 153 visitors)
Newest Member: Dade
Post Volume: Total: 887,272 Year: 4,918/14,102 Month: 516/707 Week: 71/176 Day: 34/37 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like.
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 67 of 242 (788598)
08-02-2016 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
08-02-2016 11:04 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
And I'm pointing out what I've often said, there is no way to deal with events in the past EXCEPT by imagination, by educated imaginative reconstruction, and you can't get any closer to the truth than a reasonable plausibility. What I'm objecting to is your accusing me of making up stuff as if that's an error when that's all you are doing too.

The problem is not "educated imaginative reconstructions" it is conflicting explanations; explanations that are "imagined" to prop up a particular issue irregardless of how they effect explanations that have previously been put out to prop up other issues.

Is it not your contention that the ENTIRE geological column is a product of the flood? And is it also not your contention that ALL tectonic activity occurred AFTER the entire geological column was laid down? Is it not your contention that the ENTIRE surface of the earth was wiped clean by the rising waters of the flood? And was it not you that declared mainstream geologic explanations to be bogus due to the lack of "livable landscapes" buried in the flood sediments? In this case, the roots of Mt. Ararat should be buried beneath flood sediments so as to be one of these so called "livable landscapes" you complain do not exist.

Your "imaginative reconstructions" are not very educated, they are simply ad-hoc explanations to prop up your premises.

And that's what I did too. Only you allowed yourself to treat them as fiction, which no Bible believer should ever do with God's word. And it isn't necessary. There are many ways of imagining the conditions to support the olive tree and the vineyard. All we have is imagination, you let yours oppose God as the fallen human mind always does.

You do realize these comments are just personal attacks, right? They don't support your argument, they simply belittle and condemn your opponent.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 11:04 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 1:49 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 77 of 242 (788622)
08-02-2016 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
08-02-2016 1:49 PM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
I don't think I said anything that blatant, and whatever I said started with the rain as saturating the earth so that it would have been liable to mudslides and so on and so forth. How complete the scouring would have been how should I know?

It had to be so complete that there was enough materials stripped off the land to produce a mile or so of sedimentary deposits that were then put back on to the bare surface. I am pretty sure you have said or implied that all loose materials would have been removed and even pre-flood rock would have been eroded to some extent.

In this case, the roots of Mt. Ararat should be buried beneath flood sediments so as to be one of these so called "livable landscapes" you complain do not exist.

You've somehow managed to garble the topic so badly I don't even know what you are talking about.

The implication of the story of the olive branch (and your comments on such) is that the mountain, the olive tree, and the soils it was growing in pre-existed the flood. Ok, fine. Not very plausible that the tree survived under water for a year, but ok, maybe it went dormant.

However, there is also tons and tons of sediment being deposited across the world. Miles deep in some places, remember?

If Mt. Ararat pre-existed the flood and was not formed after the sediments were deposited we should see the base of the mountain buried in sediment. This would be the very pattern you say does not exist - a landscape buried beneath the sediment. You claim that no such mountain buried beneath sediment can be found.

So here's the conundrum:

If the mountain formed AFTER the sediment was deposited, there is no way the olive tree could have been growing on it in the time frame specified in the Biblical account.

If the mountain pre-existed the flood, so that the olive tree was able to survive and grow, then it is impossible that ALL the sediments in the world are a result of the flood, since the base of the mountain is NOT buried in sediment.

They're educated in the exact sense I used the word, as based on reading up on the conditions required for healthy olive trees and vineyards.

Really... where did you read that the conditions for healthy olive trees and vineyards involved being underwater for several months? Where did you read about what the soil conditions were like before the flood? Or growing conditions in general? How was it you "educated" yourself about healthy olive trees? Sources please.

Seems to me what I said is a completely factual description of what he is doing. I also included some preaching that could have been left out, a couple of statements, but the preaching was the response to his attacks on me. He preaches worldly science with no less dogmatic belittling and condemnation of the opponent, as you all do, and I'm not always in a mood to take it lying down.

Factual or not, it is NOT a rebuttal to any argument he had made. It amounts to saying he is wrong because he is a despicable, evil human being.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 1:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 5:43 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 6:49 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 83 of 242 (788640)
08-02-2016 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
08-02-2016 6:49 PM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Wow have you made mush out of what I was saying. There was ALWAYS landscape PRE-EXISTING the Flood, the created world for pete's sake, that would have been covered by the sediments, the exact opposite of what you claim I said does not exist.

Could you please provide a cross-section that shows these pre-existing landscapes in the form of mountains, hills, river beds, and whatever else may have existed before the flood that were subsequently covered by flood sediments.

Then for your second scenario you could try to prove that the base of the mountain was never covered in sediments, in which case you should also show evidence that there is no strata in that region, or you could prove that it wasn't tectonically affected later so as to be pushed up above such deposits, or to incorporate the deposited strata into the mountain.

Why should I have to prove all that? If this pre-existing surface (which includes the mountains of Ararat) was covered by flood deposits then it should be easy to spot it on all sorts of cross sections. It is your hypothesis, I am simply proposing what we should observe if your hypothesis were true.

Look up "growing conditions for olive trees" and the same for grapevines or some such. And PLEASE try to be less cantankerous.

Your projecting, there was nothing cantankerous in my attitude.

I don't have an issue with the vineyard; there is really no time frame mentioned for when Noah harvested grapes - it could have been years (it would take at least 3 years to harvest fruit and produce wine but it very well could have been that long).

But its pretty clear that you really didn't get your ideas about the olive tree from educating yourself about growing conditions for olive trees. If you had looked it up, you would have found that olive trees can vigorously re-sprout from their roots when the above ground portions are killed. I would expect that you would have mentioned that fact because it would have supported your premise.

But instead of presenting what you had learned about growing conditions for olive trees, you "imagined" pre-flood vitality that allowed the tree to survive unsurvivable conditions. No, you didn't find that in Wikipedia.

Olive trees are Mediterranean plants and cannot survive temperatures below -10C. They don't grow in mountains because it is too cold (to which you "imagined" that mountains were much smaller back then). Like all plants, olives need oxygen to survive (even when dormant) and being under water even for a week or two would cause them to suffocate - they do not have the ability to extract oxygen from water. Roots also need oxygen and would also suffocate underwater. A "couple of months" is far too long for an olive tree to be underwater and survive (to which you imagine that olive trees had some trait that allowed them to survive under water but was subsequently lost after the flood).

Why would I consider this to be "educated?"

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 6:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 08-02-2016 9:43 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 85 by Coyote, posted 08-02-2016 9:57 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:13 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 98 of 242 (788669)
08-03-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
08-03-2016 10:13 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Provide a cross section of what? The pre-Flood world? You're joking? I have no idea what such a cross section would do for you. You got some very wrong idea about what I meant by a landscape, and I tried to correct your misimpression. I can't tell yet if you got the message. I said I was only talking about the Geo Timescale imaginary "landscapes" invented to illustrate what the clues in the rocks seem to suggest, but there was always A landscape, that would have been covered in sedimentary layers Now you want a cross section of that? Whatever for?

Every cross section should have a basal surface that the flood deposited sediments on (if the section goes deep enough).

You have now concluded that the mountains of Ararat pre-existed the flood and were not eroded away by the initial flooding.

The mountains of Ararat would therefore represent one such basal surface.

We would expect other such surfaces to have avoided erosion by the flood and for there to be such features captured in the geological record.

You have denied that such features exist and have insisted that all (now maybe most) tectonic events occurred AFTER all sediments were laid down.

If you aren't cantankerous you are doing a fine job of seeming to be, making irrelevant demands in a very dictatorial tone and so on.

You're projecting.

You are also making tyrannical demands about what I should have learned from what I read about olive trees, and defining "education" to suit yourself as well. What's going on with you?

Don't get mad at me because I called you on your BS.

What I described was not all that controversial. I read enough to answer the specific claim about the olive tree.

Olive trees surviving underwater for months is not controversial?

But what else should I expect from a "Christian" who is willing to let his own educated imagination trump what God's word says?

Well, it's a good thing that I am not subject to your judgement - that your opinion isn't what determines my authenticity.

Yes, NOW you can get really pushed out of shape.

I don't let emotion rule my actions, so I'm not likely to get "pushed out of shape" due to your mean remarks.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 1:32 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 99 of 242 (788671)
08-03-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
07-31-2016 10:30 AM


Are there other things based on reality, physics, chemistry, geology and paleontology that should be seen?

The Biblical account describes a fairly advanced civilization in the time before the flood with cities and metal workers. I wonder why none of these building materials or metal objects show up in the geological record until modern times. Shouldn't we be finding quantities of these objects in lower levels of sediment?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 10:30 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021