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Author Topic:   Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 242 (788444)
07-31-2016 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
07-31-2016 6:46 PM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
I remember something about paleosols that indicated that they had developed in a tropical climate under highly advantageous conditions, even something about their being unlike today's soils in their superior properties. Don't have the patience to look further than I just did, so maybe someone can correct me if this is wrong.

A paleosol or fossil soil is just a soil that formed on a landscape sometime in the past. I see them all the time doing archaeology.

One example: beneath our local archaeological sites there is often a layer that is kind of golden, showing exposure and oxidation at some time in the past. That is just one type of paleosol.

Also, we generally refer to cultural layers within our sites as anthrosols, indicating there is human influence in their creation.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 07-31-2016 6:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-31-2016 7:26 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 23 of 242 (788469)
07-31-2016 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
07-31-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
OK, thanks, but at an archaeological site aren't you seeing fairly recent layers that would have been built on top of the geo column? That is, assuming the Flood of course, the paleosols would all be post-Flood where you are working.

abe Or, so as not to stretch your credulity too much, in very recent time as compared to the time periods assigned in the Geo Timescale?

Biblical scholars place the global flood about 4,250 years ago, and that is a time period which I have seen in maybe up to 100 archaeological sites.

I see continuity from much earlier up to historic times with no breaks which could be attributed to a flood. I see continuity in mtDNA, cultural patterns, fauna and flora, and sedimentation. Nowhere in the 8-10,000 years that I routinely deal with is there evidence of a flood.

So, either the biblical scholars are wrong or the bible is wrong.

The geological column has nothing to do with any of this--the flood is either in historic times (somewhere around 4,250 years ago) or it didn't happen at all. In this recent time period we are dealing with soils, not rocks. The only reason creationists try to place the flood at an earlier date, and attempt to deal with early geology, is they have given up trying to show a global flood at the appointed time of about 4,250 years ago.

All the evidence shows that the global flood didn't happen and all the belief in the world can't change that.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-31-2016 7:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 9:37 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 85 of 242 (788642)
08-02-2016 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by herebedragons
08-02-2016 8:59 PM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
In these threads we are hearing about 100-200 million year old--or older--geological layers as being deposited by the flood, and we are also hearing that olive trees were around earlier than that?

But scientists seem to place the first olive-like trees some 60,000 years ago. And biblical scholars place the flood something close to 4,350 years ago. Bit of a difference among those dates, eh?

The bottom line: its useless to debate pre- vs. post flood conditions or most anything else relating to the flood because creationists are not using real-world evidence in their arguments. Its all made up, ad hoc "what ifs", designed to fit their a priori beliefs (somehow--anyhow) into the real-world evidence.

It doesn't matter how unrealistic the fit, or how much the evidence contradicts those "what ifs" -- anything that will support belief will do. And when all the "what ifs" are disproved, they just start over as the evidence doesn't really matter. Belief is everything.

And then many of them claim to be doing science?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by herebedragons, posted 08-02-2016 8:59 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:30 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 89 of 242 (788655)
08-03-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
08-03-2016 10:30 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Do you know what a paradigm clash is, Coyote? It doesn't sound like you do. It's where DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT THE WORLD conflict.

Your post seems to suggest that all ideas are of equal merit. They are not.

Not all ideas are equally supported by the real-world evidence.

Some ideas, like the global flood, are flatly contradicted by the real-world evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:51 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 242 (788725)
08-04-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
08-04-2016 2:18 AM


The land mass was not divided until the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) which was over a hundred years after the flood.

So you are saying humans were living some 175 million years ago?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 2:18 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 136 of 242 (788878)
08-06-2016 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
08-06-2016 3:15 AM


All we know is that the Bible says the land mass was one single land mass that was surrounded by water as it was in one place.

Pangea, which was the most recent example of all land being in one mass, broke up some 175 million years ago.

Are you suggesting that humans were in existence that long ago?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 2:55 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 144 of 242 (789002)
08-09-2016 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
08-09-2016 2:55 AM


Science vs. creation "science"
I would just disagree on your time frame.

And what scientific evidence would you use to dispute the time frame?

None, right?

Your disagreement with scientific dating is another example of creationists' use of "rubber band years" to find some date--any date--that might be home to the flood. The fact that humans weren't around 175 million years doesn't seem to be a problem. There was one land mass back then, so creationists stretch the evidence by about 174.8 million years in an effort to support their flood myth.

Good thing creationists aren't real scientists, though they sometimes pretend that they are. A real scientist who tried to stretch the dating like that would be laughed out of whatever profession he was in. With creationists, its just apologetics as usual. If that date doesn't fit, they'll just try some other date.

"Evidence? We don't need no steeenkin' evidence!"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 2:55 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:29 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 171 of 242 (789265)
08-12-2016 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
08-12-2016 3:02 AM


He did know what it was like in his days but the single land mass had been divided in the days of Peleg which was at least 100 years after the flood.

So you are saying that humans were around 175 million years ago? Because that's the most recent time there was a single land mass.

(And don't tell me you disagree with dating "assumptions." I created a whole new thread on that subject--which you've ignored.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 08-12-2016 3:02 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 08-13-2016 3:32 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 177 of 242 (789321)
08-13-2016 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by ICANT
08-13-2016 4:20 AM


Re: Science vs. creation "science"
ICANT, you seem to be making the standard creationist mistake of equating "assumption" with "wild-ass guess and almost certainly wrong."

Just because you don't like the conclusions doesn't mean the assumptions are wrong. You have to come up with some reason to support your conclusion that the assumptions are wrong.

Also, you previously stated that scientific dating was wrong because "assumptions." I started a whole new thread for you to back up your claims, but you haven't done so.

Perhaps its easier for you to just cry, "Assumptions!" than it is to actually show how they're wrong?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ICANT, posted 08-13-2016 4:20 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ICANT, posted 08-14-2016 4:47 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 189 of 242 (789517)
08-16-2016 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ICANT
08-16-2016 1:30 AM


Re: Science vs. creation "science"
Evidence creates facts not assumptions.

And the fact is that creationists have to change definitions around and have to challenge scientific assumptions because the evidence shows their claims are false.

Creationists don't like the result of a scientific theory? Claim it is based on "assumptions" and by so doing challenge its results.

In reality, as has been pointed out, those assumptions are not just "wild-ass guesses," but are based on evidence--generally a lot of evidence.

A good example of creation "science" at work--a few days ago you challenged scientific dating methods by stating they are based on "assumptions." In other words, without providing any evidence you sought to discredit an entire field of scientific study.

I provided a separate thread for you to back up your claim that the assumptions involved in scientific dating are incorrect, but you have avoided that thread--as I expected.

No problem. You just keep on doing creation "science" and the rest of will stick to real science. We can do that, as we have the evidence on our side.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2016 1:30 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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