Christianity and the End Times

Paulk is getting kind of wild now.
He says -

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And now you are denying your own (admittedly worthless) argument that the manchild represented the dead overcomers of Revelation 12:11 by claiming that those people are alive and being persecuted in verse 17.

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The Manchild consists of those who did not love their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH. That strongly suggests that they DIED. Delivered and caught up to the throne of God means RESURRECTION and RAPTURE. During their lives on earth they became worthy of the reward. For instance they kept the word of His endurance. And Christ promises that even if some should not physcally be alive when He comes, they still would be given authority to co-shepherd the nations with a strong ruling power (an iron rod) - (See Revelation 2:26) They DIED. But shortly before the end of the age, and BEFORE the great tribulation, they are resurrected and raptured.The REST of the LIVING saints who are of ONE mystical body with these overcomers will be left, missing the early rapture, and passing through the great tribulation to LEARN to overcome.They are rapture or resurrected and raptured AFTERWARDS.
This agrees in principle with visions of FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST taken at different times - separated by the major events of the great tribulation.Now do not misunderstand me here.
The MANCHILD are the saints raptured pre-tribulation who physically died before that time.
The FIRSTFRUITS are the living saints who are alive on earth during that time.BOTH MANCHILD and FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST and UNIVERSAL BRIGHT WOMAN are ONE mystical Body of Christ. In life they are all ONE Body.Revelation shows various timings of the destinies of these varied components of the ONE Body of all God's redeemed people.I'm not confused. PaulK want to portray me as being confused.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So first you claim that the overcomers in verse 10-11 were Raptured. Then you claimed that they were left on Earth. Now you claim that some of them were and some weren’t.

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Please QUOTE me with the words which lead you to believe that I am saying that the overcomers (Manchild) are BOTH raptured to God's throne in the third heavens AND SIMULTANEOUSLY left on the earth to be persecuted for the thousand two hundred and sixty days. Quote me where you derived this understanding of what I have been saying.HOW did you get that kind of misunderstanding or understanding ?? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It should be pretty easy PaulK.Ie. I am alleging teaching - Taken and Left on the earth at the SAME time - the SAME people. Get me the QUOTE. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Quote the three independent claims for my examination.If you can't then you appear to me to be confused because you want to be confused.

There is no need to retract anything I wrote or wait for Paulk. Perhaps some clarification would help those wanting clarification. So I offer some further brief development on Rev. 12.The sign of the Woman standing and the Dragon waiting is seen in heaven (Rev. 12:1) . This does not mean that the Body of saints are IN heaven. But that the vision pertains to something so universal to be seen from the transcendent viewpoint of God.The Woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and with a crown of twelve stars is reminiscent of Joseph's vision of God's elect on earth in Genesis 37:9.The Woman also is reminiscent of Eve promised to bring forth a worthy opponent of the serpent to defeat him in Genesis 3:15.She cried out to deliver a child. The child refers to the Manchild of verse 5 specifically. That child is the stronger part within her. We should contrast Woman with Manchild as we would contrast the weaker vessel with the stronger vessel.Thoughout all generations a stronger part among all of God's people form an entity within the entire body of God's people. These form a collective fighting unit on behalf of the larger body of saints.Throughout the Bible a remnant among all of God's saints fight the battle of bringing in God's kingdom and authority to the earth.God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery - (Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth a stronger and prevailing unit of saints to fight the battle for God in the spiritual warfare and bring in the kingdom of God.The travailing and crying out include the prayers of God's people.Sometimes we have noticed travailing petition and crying out prayer preceded spiritual victory in the Bible. Sometimes it must have been behind the scenes.The chief answer to these prayers is the coming of Christ. And of all the victors in Scripture Jesus Christ is the main and chief representative. He was God-man. Since He also was a Man all over men and women who overcome must do so through the victory that is in Him.His resurrection was also described BY Him Himself as a BIRTH of a man into the world. The point is that Jesus spoke of His resurrection as a BIRTH.
This is very related to God's people travailing through the ages for total victory over sin and death and all of the opposition of God's enemy.For this reason if someone were to argue with me that the Manchild represents Jesus Christ I would not say they were wrong. But they are incomplete in that God's purpose is that the life of Jesus Christ would be imparted into all His redeemed people.Now I expect some skeptical types to argue that all these things are not relevant. Of course they are as Revelation is a grand climax of the entire 66 books of the Bible.Of course the chief Head Overcoming human being this would be God incarnate as a man in Jesus Christ. In resurrection He says that His people will live because He lives. The believers will live in the sphere and realm of His resurrection life. They will live in union with Him in His state as the resurrected One. Jesus is the LEADING resurrected Overcomer.It is necessary to see these things even to understand what it means for the woman to be WITH CHILD. The "organic" unity between Christ and His church and those within the church who OVERCOME through Christ. The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee has a good explanation of the Woman and Manchild. Copied from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee (Set 2) Vol. 34. - The Glorious Church Published by Living Stream MinistryTitles A-Z | LSM Online PublicationsThe serpent who was at enmity with Eve in the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 has now seen as an enlarged dragon. The implication is that he has grown in power, in hatred, and in ferociousness as the Devil has throughout the ages continued to oppose God and His people.The dragon is "... the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth." (v.9) The redness of the dragon points to his murders and bloodshed as throughout the ages Satan has opposed God and God's people. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I don't see how the Manchild can be any other than Jesus, who is to rule the world with a rod of iron, and there is nothing to suggest that this figure is in any sense plural as you seem to be saying.

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I believe the Manchild IS Jesus. But he is Jesus DISPENSED into a group of people. I believe it is Jesus IMPARTED successfully into a group of people. That is Triune God WROUGHTS Jesus into the souls of a group of cooperative believers who have ALLOWED God to do so.In cooperating with God's eternal plan to dispense divine life into some receivers, they become the STRONGER part of the general total Body of Christ.Jesus Himself expected this. He said that through Him his believers would do greater things. Now this means "greater" according to what God deems is great. And God deems as great the Christ be EXPANDED and ENLARGED into human beings.An example: The works He does (excluding redemption) His believers shall do.
Greater than these (greater according to God's measure of greatness) they shall do.The man-child is a symbolic representation of such who rise to this expectation.

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While His followers are certainly to have His nature, and do get to participate in His battles there's a way you seem to make far more of our part than scripture allows: He is the sovereign king, all the power is His, we are always needing His sustenance and help.

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The revelation of the man-child does not in any way rob Jesus Christ of His unique honor of being THE sovereign King. On the contrary.When Christ promises to the overcomers that what He does with the nations in the millennium they ALSO will do (compare Rev. 19:15 with Rev. 2:26) there is no hint that He or His Father considers this as ROBBING Christ of His unique honor as THE sovereign King.When Christ promises to the overcomers to sit with Him on His throne as He sat with His Father on His throne (Rev. 3:21) there is no hint that this CO-honor is ROBBING Christ of His unique dignity as THE sovereign King.What we should see is that in both cases the promises are made to the ones who OVERCOME.One more example. When the parable of the returning Lord grants one faithful servant to rule over ten cities and another to rule over five cities (Luke 19:17) this is an honor to them. It is not taking AWAY any honor to the Lord and Master who thus rewards them.In fact, in the parallel teaching in Matthew 25:23 this is the rewarded ones entering into the joy of the Lord. What He enjoys they are rewarded to CO-enjoy. There is no hint there that the master considered the rewarded slave as disrespectfully robbing any honor FROM the master.

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But mostly I just don't see anything in the passage itself that includes believers in the figure of the Manchild. As PaulK says the figure iis singular.

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That manchild is SINGULAR is not a problem to me because the oneness and unity of salvation is to manifest one new man .When un-opposed, unhindered and overcome the cooperating recipients of salvation put on "THE NEW MAN." God's full salvation is meant to save us from all social stratification of cultural divisions and bring us into one expression of a new humanity - one NEW MAN. This is the intended and normal outcome of His salvation.Oneness to express one FULL GROWN MAN is intended by Jesus and not hindered. The outcome of maturity in the growth of divine life will manifest a ONENESS and a MAN. This is something strong for God's eternal purpose. And it is something Satan fears and fights with all his might to prevent from coming into being.Paul goes on to teach that it is being as CHILDREN to be kept from this maturity in growth. Now Paul says Until ... we ALL ARRIVE ... . We may not ALL ARRIVE at the same time. Some, as so often depicted in the Scripture, pave the way to ARRIVE at God's intention before the rest and for the SAKE of the rest.This is the principle of the man-child. They ON TIME, manifest the one new man to express Christ and exercise CO-dominion with Christ.Denominations, divisions, strifes, enmities, jealousies, sectarian divisions and works of the flesh and disunity of all types in the church are Satan's master strokes to prevent this ONE NEW MAN from coming into existence.The very growth of life in the Body of Christ is for the bringing into being this oneness of maturity in divine life. The Ephesian passage continues: The divine life imparted into believers is not merely for individual salvation. It is for the manifestation of the stronger new man in a corporate way. The life within Christians longs for this to come about.

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The woman may be a little less obvious but I don't see any clear reason not to interpret her as Israel, which gave birth to the Manchild. Yes there is a connection with Joseph's dream but that was also about Israel. The twelve stars suggest the twelve tribes. Also, Israel is often depicted as having labor pains. Laboring to bring forth the Messiah would be my interpretation, but also even laboring to bring forth the New Creation.

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Israel is a part of this woman of universal light. We should not say she is ONLY Israel. Nor should we say she is ONLY the new testament church. She is the TOTALITY of God's people throughout three dispensations -The pre-law age of the patriarchs (the stars as a crown)
The age of the law as the believers under Moses' law (the moon REFLECTING the sun).
The age of grace in Christ (the Sun of righteousness) clothing the greater part of her total body.In each of these ages faithful overcomers followed Christ.
Remember that Christ is God.
And even the Israelite Moses before the incarnation of Christ was said to have chosen suffering with God's people and "the reproach of the Christ". My point here is that before the incarnation of Christ the saints of previous ages lived UNTO Christ. Christ is said to be both the ROOT and the BRANCH of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1 comp. Revelation 22:16) Christ is the SOURCE of all the godly saints in ages. He is also the OUTCOME to have come from them, seeing He is God incarnate as a MAN Like us.

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I normally love Watchman Nee but what you quote of him about the Woman and the Manchild is so allegorical it doesn't make sense to me. The figures are already signs or symbols.

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In my opinion you should take a little time then to read the whole book of The Glorious Church by Brother Nee which you can read online atTitles A-Z | LSM Online Publications

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I'm not getting into the details and may be overlooking some major points of yours but these things have been on my mind.

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Don't overlook that Adam was called the first man.
And Jesus Christ is called the last Adam and the second man.If a group of people grow up in Christ and into Christ in all things they will manifest a new humanity of man blended with God, man united with God, man expressing God.And this is according to God's original purpose in CREATING man in the first place - for man to express God and have dominion on behalf of God. This is the expression and dominion which man LOST in the fall to be under Satan's rebellious authority. Christ came to recover the eternal purpose of man and to actually bring man to an even higher station in His full salvation.Though not all arrive at the same time, all who are saved will arrive by the time of the new heaven and new earth. Before the millennium God collects those who matured into a man-child to be resurrected and raptured to be CO-rulers with Jesus the God-man.Arrogance is excluded. It is ONLY through His salvation that they can achieve this. And it is only in ONENESS that it can be achieved. Christ Himself is the essential element of this oneness among His saints. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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This means that before the great tribulation a group of saints are raptured.
This group consists of two parts - 1.) those LIVING at the time and overcoming. 2.) those who were "asleep" (dead in Christ) in Hades at that time ... who lived overcoming lives.The group taken up to the third heavens (in Revelation) are shown in two chapters - 1.) chapter 14 (as Firstfruits )
2.) chapter 12 (as the Man-child )Aside from some caveats not addressed at the moment, THIS was the basic meaning of what I wrote (albeit probably not in the best English prose):

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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Your objection then:

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And in that message you directly identify the manchild as comprising the brethrenof verse 10

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To clarify then. BRETHREN must be ANY brethren whether taken to heaven or left on the earth.I do not mean to communicate that the ones raptured are BRETHREN but the ones left on the earth are NOT BRETHREN.The BRETHREN who have overcome are BRETHREN.
But the BRETHREN still left defeated and harrassed upon the earth are still BRETHREN.Which BRETHREN are told to REJOICE?
Well for CERTAIN - the BRETHREN who have overcome and been raptured REJOICE. Rapture (though not a biblical word per se) means a kind of ecstatic JOY. So of course the raptured ones REJOICE.Whether the ones left rejoice or not I am not sure. I hope some do, seeing that the time is near for Christ to come down to earth. But that they were left should not be a matter to rejoice over.I will take more time to look into this. But no major problem do I see in this exhortation to rejoice about OUR BROTHERS to understanding the Man-child as BROTHERS - BRETHREN brought into the fullest happiness of seeing the dramatic fruit of their endurance in resurrection, rapture, vindication, and forcing Satan and his hosts to NO LONGER have space to accuse God's saints before God as he does.If I am following what you object to.You point out then:

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And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.Now if the ones TAKEN were brothers and the ones left were brothers, the ones with standing to be referred to as having OVERCOME are the brothers taken and not left.IF all the brothers are on the earth and ONLY Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there is no reason to count the harrassed, persecuted, opposed, and overcome saints to be described as rejoicing at the arrival of the kingdom of God. To which BROTHERS would this be more appropriate an announcement?Would it be more appropriate to those who physically resurrect and JOIN Christ at the throne of God in Heaven ?Or would it be more appropriate to the rest of the fleeing seed of the woman over whom Satan and the Antichrist are permitted to make war and overcome THEM? Which group of BROTHERS has more reason to rejoice ?I say it would be the BROTHERS who are through with Satan's accusation.
I say it is the BROTHERS who conquered by standing on the power of Christ's redemption in the blood of the Lamb. I think it is the BROTHERS who speak the word of their testimony and denied themselves at the cost of their lives throughout the ages.Many saints have not denied themselves. They have SAVED the SELF and shoned dying with Christ to be raised with Christ.Those who denied the SELF and overcame rejoice at the sudden vindication of being caught up to God and His throne in Rapture. Their place is now in Heaven. The place prepared for those saints left on earth in some "wilderness".These taken are fully NOURISHED. The majority are UNDERNOURISHED. But the faithful God prepares a place where they may BE nourished.I suspect that you will regard these words are extraneous and irrelevant facts. But I have not lost focus.HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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(Which amazingly you seemed to forget as soon as I identified the overcomersof verse 11 with the brethren of verse 10 - even though it is a simple matter of grammar)

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If one has to identify overcoming BROTHERS in that chapter, by far it should not be:1.) angels
2.) humans on earth being overcome by Satan and the Antichrist (Rev.13:7)
3.) Christ as an individual I am persuaded that the stronger Man-child refers - Christ as a corporate body of a remnant - the best interpretation.
That is a corporate man-child coming out FROM the Woman. You can interpret it differently if you feel to.

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Here is where you suggest that some were Raptured and some were not.

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I did not suggest this. I plainly stated it from the beginning of my analysis of Revelation 12.What was not clear was that BOTH groups are BROTHERS - Raptured and overoming BROTHERS who rejoice at the Kingdom of God NOW and LEFT BROTHERS who have another forty-two months or a thousand two hundred and sixty days before they may REJOICE in the arrival of the kingdom of God.You highlight that I wrote:

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A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

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That is basically right. And the chapter strongly indicates that at least there are rejoicing people in heaven and people on the earth who have instead of rejoicing WOE for a short period more of time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

After some rest I will try to show from the structure of the book of Revelation, that it should be divided into TWO major sections.The actual end of the end times arrives in chapter 11.
What follows chapter 11 starting with chapter 12 is something of a revisiting of the events previously mentioned with a particular FOCUS on the last three and one half years of the age.This is the difference between the scroll in chapter 4 and 5 and the little scroll in chapter 10.What we read then in chapters 12 and 13 is something of a rehash of what we have already read about in chapter 9. I speak of Satan being limited from roaming in the spheres of the upper heavens and being driven down to the earth in the last few years of the age before Christ's setting foot on the earth again.Please prepared by reading Revelation 9 through 13 or at least chapter 9 and chapters 10 and 11.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

First -To clarify WHAT is the CAUSE of WHAT, I will now walk backwards from the great tribulation to prove that the pre-tribulation rapture is its very CAUSE.Here is the great tribulation in Rev. 13 Satan on the earth summons up the Antichrist to vest his authority to him.From Revelation 12:18-13:1
But the CAUSE of this is BEFORE. Satan coming down to earth with great rage.The previous - Revlation 12:12b
But this strategic defeat was CAUSED by the realization in practicality of Christ's kingdom and power arriving.The previous - Revelation 12:10But the CAUSE of the kingdom's coming NOW and Satan's coming down in great rage is his being FORCED down by Michael the archangel and his good angels.The previous - Revelation 12:7-9
Now walking backwards we come to the critical part in the chapter.
The CAUSE of Michael going to war and prevailing is the rapture of the Man-child up to God and to His throne.The previous - Revelation 12:5 By walking backwards we can see the cause and effect of the series of events. Satan knew the significance of the Man-child being brought forth. And for this reason throughout the ages he has stood before the people of God to PREVENT that man-child from coming into existence.This goes for Jesus Christ as its Head AND for all the overcoming saints for whom Jesus Christ is their salvation, source, empowerer, grace, Forerunner, captain of salvation and Leader. We walked backwards to see HOW then the great tribulation is CAUSED by a pre-tribulation rapture of overcoming saints.It is the overcoming saints who will give the command for Michael and the good angels to fight against the Devil who must be driven out from before God as the accuser of the church and the entire Universal Bright Woman of all God's saints.This is a matter of spiritual warfare. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If we seek to LIVE Christ - receiving Him in faith, and if we also pray the prayers for the defeat of His enemy, in principle we are doing our part as the man-child.In principle we are setting our selves aside for the sake of Christ having His kingdom and we are touching the STRONGER part of the Woman.Yet we would be Christians only doing what was our duty to do.
We would be simpy coming up to the expected standard in seeking to be overcomers in Christ.

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I believe that I understand your claim. However your assertion was that the manchild specifically represented the brethren of Revelation 12:10-11, refers to a literal Rapture and precedes the Tribulation. However your explication of the vision of verses 1-5 is sadly lacking, offering no explanation of why it should mean all this.

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I don't see anything "sadly lacking".What is "sadly lacking" is any effect you have to invalidate a very good interpretation of the symbols of Revelation 12. Try as you may.I have yet to see a better alternative from you.

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And yet you argued that all were left on Earth. The quote has already been given.

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This is nothing more but your misunderstanding of what I wrote.
I take some responsibility for wording which gave you a misunderstanding.But I will not do so perpetually if you want to remain in misunderstanding as some face saving measure on your part.And I still see no better interpretation from you then -Of the universal mystical Body of Christ - Some remnant (dead in Christ) will be resurrected and raptured AND some remnant (alive ) will be raptured to Christ.And of the SAME mystical Body of Christ - Some remain deceased and in Hades - "dead in Christ".And of that SAME mystical Body of Christ - Some, living at the time of the pre-tribulation rapture, are LEFT upon the earth to pass through the great tribulation.This has been my intention to communicate from the beginning.
I have changed NOTHING.
I have clarified against any possible misunderstanding.And I am willing to see YOUR alternative and better viewpoint of the chapter.I wrote:

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.

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You respond:

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I do not - and never have denied that the brethren are a group, of course - and it would be silly to suggest that it did. What I question is the assertion that the manchild really does represent the brethrenof verses 10-11

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The "questioning" has been addressed.I told you what I did NOT mean to imply.
All believers in the chapter are brothers.The fact of the matter is that any OVERCOMING ones must be BESIDE those in the Woman left upon the earth. Those saints alive and on earth still and who BEING overcome by the enemies, for all intents and purposes.So it is quite logical. For some to have overcome corresponds to some being resurrected - raptured - IE, brought forth by the entire mystical Body of Christ.Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.I asked you before to present evidence that there are people in heaven before this catching up. I think silence was your response.Since silence on this is your response, I offer the logical explanation that the overcomers are in heaven because a thousand two hundred and sixty days before the close of the age, they were either resurrected and raptured or living at that time and raptured alive. Revelation 12 and 14 cover both.I wrote:

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HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?
I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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Your reply:

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Yes, you think it is better. But then you thought that there was a pre-tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. Your opinions are hardly reliable.

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I still think there is a pre-great tribulation rapture in Matthew 24:40,41.
What makes you think I changed my view?It certainly was not your "say-so" that I am wrong, as you wrote to some other poster. That didn't effect me to change my view.I STILL teach that the TAKEN in Matthew 24:40 - 44 , specifically the TWO men in the field and the TWO women grinding at the mill are taken suddenly away BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.I did not assume YOU changed YOUR mind.
I don't know why you assumed that I changed mine.So we agree to disagree and move on. I don't feel to go over it again with the same person.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Your blindness is your problem. In what sense is the dragon waiting to devour the dead?

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The dragon throughout the ages has been waiting to devour the saints as they lived unto God.For example - Cain killed Abel. Satan instigated Cain to do away with this overcoming one while he lived.Of course Satan would like that any departed saints would REMAIN in Hades. But though he continues his opposition to the Body of saints in this, Jesus has the KEYS of death and of Hades to release His saints at will.Christ, in resurrection and glory declares to John - Satan desires to kill God's people with spiritual death, with physical death, and to keep them in Hades. This is his opposition to the whole mystical body of Christ throughout the ages. Redemption cures the problem of man's alienation in guilt from God.
Regeneration cures spiritual death.
Transformation cures the damage of man's soul because of SIN.
And Resurrection with the keys of death and Hades is the answer to the problem of God's saints being held forever there.The standing of the dragon against the Universal Bright Woman is Satan's opposition to God's people at every and any stage.

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If it is intended literally, why is there no mention of any resurrection.

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I am not sure what you mean here. The revelation is made known to us BY SIGNS. (Rev. 1:1)Some discernment and skill I exercise to determine how literal to take the details.Lamb of God obviously does not mean a four footed creature with wool and a little tail. Revelation 12:10's Lamb is a symbol of the Redeemer Jesus Christ.Yes, I interpret "was caught up to God and to His throne" to indicate rapture.Since the overcomers apparently DIED - "... and they loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH" , I include RESURRECTION with RAPTURE in the catching up of the man-child.

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If it is not, then why should we believe that being taken up to Heaven is literal ?

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It is the best interpretation. Whoever the man-child IS, he or they have a destiny in that chapter different from the rest of the woman's seed being persecuted on earth. I believe it says CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE because simply to be physcially removed is not the point.Spiritually in thier hearts they lived unto God overcomingly and were before His throne in their hearts overcomingly. The point is that they are suddenly physically taken to where their HEART was spiritually during their lives.One could suggest that CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE .But you won't definitely maintain that because you think it is safer to remain uncommitted and simply hunt for problems in my explanation.It is not likely that overcomers being spiritually caught up to God and to His throne yet physically remaining on earth, would somehow be EXEMPT from the wrath of Satan.Now, you may complain at the next thing I write. But for the sake of some readers it will be helpful.Some of those remaining on earth will be martyed as the overcomers. Some will not love THIER soul-life unto death. These are seen in Revelation 15 as the saints standing on the sea of glass in 15:2-4. These are the persecuted saints left on the earth WHO were martyred (See Rev. 14:13) . Though they missed the early rapture some became equally VICTORIOUS (15:2) in the great tribulation.They stand over all the dreadful judgment of God and not shaken by the Antichrist.So the end times not being a simple matter, is covered in various visions as to its details in Revelation, the book of SIGNS.

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You may like that interpretation but it is hardly the only one, nor is it obviously better.

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And you seem to take on the job of offering no alternative but settle into the safe role of iterative skeptic.And I never assumed there were not other ways of viewing these things. Of course there are.I wrote:

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Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.

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Your retort:

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Assuming that they are represented by the manchild tells us no more about who they are.

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Taking into account all of Scripture's history of spiritual warfare, the SIGN of the manchild tells us much. They are a remnant of those who rise to the expected standard of victory over God's enemy through God's salvation.Not only was the seed of the woman foretold to crush the head of the ancient serpent Gen 3:15) . But the prevailing saints in the normal church life will in coordination crush the serpent under their corporate feet. Christ is made the Head over all things TO THE CHURCH This phrase TO THE CHURCH strongly implies a kind of transmission. The church SHARES in what Christ has obtained and attained. The Head and the Body are one mystical entity.And some advance to secure the promises which eventually will be the inheritance of ALL the saints.The writer of Hebrews exhorts all the believers to be imitators of the ones overcoming and who are inheriting the promises. IF you have a better way to follow Jesus, you pursue that.
Some of us want to learn to live and expect the victory of the Man-child of overcomers, whether we live or die.Is there more?
Reminding me that I wrote -

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If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.

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Your reply:

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In your opinion. But why should they not be the true Christians on Earth, some of whom have died? Who overcome not with military strength but by remaining true to their faith, no matter what ?

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We have here, I think, a couple of layers of misunderstanding.The actual driving down of the spiritual being Satan is done by other angels.
This is not the raptured saints pushing him down per se.But the ANGELS are the servants of the saints carrying out the petitions and prayers of spiritual warfare on behalf of them. The angels carry out the SERVICE of driving down Satan and his angels on behalf of the overcoming human saints.That part is not a human military matter. What about the defeat of Antichrist and his armies? That is done by the breath of Christ's mouth at Armageddon. No, I do not believe human made missiles and bombs defeat Satan and his antichrist and false prophet.Christ, accompanied by His army of overcoming victors from the ages follow Him as He defeats the evil forces with His very manifestation of His coming and His speaking. He is calling all believers to accompany Him. Some will. That is all the time I will give for discussion right now. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The woman may be a little less obvious but I don't see any clear reason not to interpret her as Israel, which gave birth to the Manchild.

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Well, if she is a symbol ONLY of Israel, then how would you interpret these things?Clothed with the sun.
The moon underneath her feet.
On her head a crown of twelve stars.

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Yes there is a connection with Joseph's dream but that was also about Israel.

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There is a definite similarity to the dream of Genesis 37:9.
There Joseph's father and mother were the sun and moon.
And his brothers were the eleven stars.The family was the totality of God's elect on earth. I don't mean that God had no other people on earth at the time. But the main project of a consecrated collective with a covenant relationship with God was Joseph's family.Revelation is not just the conclusion of the Old Testament but of both covenants. So the principle of the totality of His people who have ever lived is a more fitting symbol.This universal woman is the same as the Wife in eternity of New Jerusalem . New Jerusalem has foundations with the names of the twelve apostles of Christ and gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Revelation 21:12-14) The woman in chapter 12 is that same woman before the consummation of all the ages.Now it is true that Christ came out of Israel.
But Christ came also out of Eve who was not a Jew or of Israel. The principle of Satan in opposition to the woman is established even before Israel comes into existence. So there is an even more universal entity which stands to be opposed by Satan. Israel is certainly an important part of this.But "the woman" includes Eve who was a recipient of the promise of God.The non-Israelite patriarchs before the Law of Moses should be a part of this group. Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, even Job predate Abraham yet are of a collective which are set apart from the world unto God.All of these, including Israel, as people of faith brought forth Christ, though ethnically Jesus was Jewish and of Israel. He was also of the heroes of faith.These heroes of faith form the twelve stars above the head of the Woman.
The age of Israel - the moon underneath her feet as the Law is subject to the saved.
The age of the Church - the sun clothing the majority of her body.But if she only represents Israel, how would you interpret the twelve stars, the sun and the moon ?

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The twelve stars suggest the twelve tribes. Also, Israel is often depicted as having labor pains. Laboring to bring forth the Messiah would be my interpretation, but also even laboring to bring forth the New Creation.

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I agree that twelve stars could mean the twelve tribes.
How then about the sun and the moon?
And why would the moon be beneath her feet.And as for the new creation, please remember that if ANYONE is in Christ there is a new creation. (Second Cor. 5:17) . So the new creation is headed up by Christ but includes all who are IN Christ - a collective.The overcomers enjoy this being a new creation to the point of being the stronger component within the whole body of God's people throughout the ages.The new creation of Second Cor. 5:17 is a group of "anyones" who have partaken of this transformation into one NEW man Of course Christ is the BEGINNING of this new creation as being the Amen the beginning of the [new] creation of God - I believe that this refers to the resurrected Christ who is the Head and Beginning of the new creation of God.Someone submitted an interesting article on Israel being seen there in Revelation 12. Some of it I had no problem with. But I think it is too limited to make that woman ONLY Israel. Rather she includes Israel, the pre-law patriarchs and heroes of faith and the new covenant church.The ALL have travailed to bring forth victorious ones throughout all of earth's history before the millennial kingdom.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

A question still about is "Could the man-child of Revelation 12 be a collective?"I say Yes indeed.The WIFE of the Lamb in Revelation 19:7 is a singular feature. But this wife who has made herself ready is a collective of overcoming saints. Yet without question this singular "person" His wife is constituted of many "saints". Individually she is many SAINTS who have made themselves ready.
Corporately she is the wife of the Lamb.In comparison a man-child as an individual entity could be constituted with many brothers who are "THEY" who overcame through the full enjoyment of Christ's salvation. (See Rev. 12:10,11) Eventually ALL the saved overcome (Rev. 21:7) . So in eternity future the Wife and Bride "person" is also a collective as a CITY - ie. many individuals. Remember CITY really means here many people rather than buildings.Recall how the Gospel of Matthew mentioned that .Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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To treat the Manchild as a collective should require SOMETHING SOMEWHERE in the scripture itself to lead to that conclusion, and I don't see anything.

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I see.
Well, let's consider some things. I do not ask you if you fully understand all the following promises. I only ask you if you can see a possible COLLECTIVE in any or all of them.In the opening chapters 2 and 3 let me ask you: 1.)
Could you consider all those qualified to enjoy this promise as possibly a collective ? 2.)
Could you consider those recipients of this promise as a possible collective? 3.)
Could all those rising to the level of this promise be thought of as a collective? 4.)
Could you think of all those who thus qualified for this promise to be a collective? 5.)
Could you consider all those who receive this reward as possibly forming a collective? 6.)
Could all the recipients of this great promise be imagined as a COLLECTIVE ? 7.)
Could you think of all those receiving this honor as a collective ?Could you think of all recipients of the seven promises TOGETHER as forming a COLLECTIVE ?Do you have a reason that each of these groups AND/OR all of them together COULD NOT be thought of as a COLLECTIVE ?One more in this post. Now here is a collective - the church . Yet WITHIN the collective there is manifest some who are approved, causing a smaller collective within the larger.Can you conceive that within the larger collective of the church there could exist a smaller collective WITHIN her who stand out before God and being particularly approved ?IF you could consider that, positively these overcomers could be a collective within a larger collective, then I think you come closer to thinking there could be a stronger part, a kind of Man-child as a collective within the larger collective of the mystical whole Body of Christ.Am I right? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.