Christianity and the End Times

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More to the point providing contrary evidence is liable to persuade others that you are wrong.

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You were mentioning "bluster" ?
So let's see your efforts below.

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That’s your explanation of why your preferred interpretation is better you find it more convincing but can’t offer anything actually convincing ?

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Nope.
But I'm waiting for backup to your bluster. So far you did the easy part. You bragged about it.

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Do you have some inability to follow a discussion ? Obviously what I mean is that it does not help your argument.

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The medium sometimes a challenge to follow without a lot of back up and double checking.Your real conclusive comments, I'm keeping an eye out for, after I get through some of this preliminary remarks.We have a number of points I expect you to offer better biblical analysis of.
You requested "Bible Study" in your OP I think.

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As I have already pointed out there is no reason to think that they overcame him refers to the manchild.

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Yes. And your comment is worthless to me.
Who ELSE in the chapter qualifies as a better referent to those who OVERCOME the Devil?The angels mentioned don't need the redeeming blood.
The symbolic woman fleeing seems to be harassed rather than overcoming.
The angels do not DIE or need to deny themselves UNTO death.The best referent to the proclamation is the THEY of the manchild.OF course the Apostle Paul said that the God of peace would also crush Satan under the feet of the prevailing disciples. So we have plain teaching that the saints will overcome Satan.
And we have symbolism to the same effect.You not only miss the big picture but possibly have a some ignorance or possible unbelief that the saints of Christ not be overcoming. Revelation 12 reveals that a remnant, a minority WILL, and that for the sake of the whole Body of Christ.So the Woman of universal light has within her a stronger component - a corporate Manchild.Also the angels going to war with the Devil and his angels in verse 7-9.
The angels are ministering servants of the human saints who are to inherit salvation. So they, on behalf of the overcoming saints, are just doing their job. This is all reminiscent of the angelic forces siding with Daniel as he stood in the gap of petition and prayer on behalf of God's people.We await your better explanation of the Manchild.You don't get the big picture at all. Jesus wants PARTNERS to follow Him in His carrying out of God's will. In fact part of His redemptive death is that He would reproduce Himself in others to be LIKE Him. The big picture of the New Testament is that Christ died not only a redemptive death but a duplicating death. That is that HE as a Son of God, would not abide ALONE.The very next verse indicates that the believers follow Him with denying their soul-life to follow Him instead. If you had any heart to see the larger picture you would see that His plain teaching in John 12:24,25 is symbolically indicated that He WILL obtain at least a remnant of those who do not love their soul life to overcome God's enemy and bring in the kingdom of God. Now, to follow the discussion more closely, I will end this post here.
Its bottom line is that I doubt you have a better referent to the overcoming ones in chapter 12 than a collective army of saints, depicted as a Man-child. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

cont. with Paulk -

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Me:
In Acts 1:11 the disciples are assured that AS He ascended, similarly He will descend again someday.

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You:
And another non-sequitur.

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Nonsense. This is explicit heads up that as He ascended, similarly He will come again.

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And, I repeat there is no reason to think that text refers to ...

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No reason that you like is what you mean.
Your preferences lie elsewhere.

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I didn’t ask for that. Instead I pointed out that your arguments were incredibly weak and that is hardly my fault.

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So far - no alternative.You're going to have to stop chiding weakness sooner or latter and offer a better explanation.Or are you just here to show off that you can disagree with me perpetually?
I've already got that.So why is the Manchild NOT a collective remnant that comprise a THEY ?Bible Study ?You could say it is Jesus. But I would respond that it IS, but JESUS as He is dispensed into some of His people. IT is no longer they that live but Christ that lives within them. That's part of the big picture.Jesus Christ wants to dispense what He is INTO those whom He redeems. His forgiveness of them is more automatic. His taking them over from within in sanctification requires cooperation with His work.Several places in assure us that not all of His saints will be weak in His plan. As the principle is throughout the whole Bible, God secures a remnant of those who overcome to correspond to His normal operation.They are not above the standard. They are simply right AT the intended standard.

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It is not that I am failing to see evidence or that you see a bigger picture.

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Oh, I think it is that indeed.

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It is just that your entire case rests on dubious interpretations which should not persuade anyone at all.

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Wishful thinking is comforting.I have not yet given ALL the reasons for interpreting a collective in both the Woman of universal brightness and her Man-child.You haven't given an alternative interpretation yet. So rather than attack a strawman, or strawmanchild as the case may be, I'll wait for your proposed better explanation.Your next post should elaborate on this. Don't forget.

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Then why try to pretend that they are about some secret pre-tribulation Rapture when Matthew 24:36 tells us that it will follow the signs listed in Matthew 24:6-31 (including the Tribulation) and

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No need for me to "pretend". More wishful thinking on your part.The word "SECRET" certainly is not in the passage.
But it is virtually a SECRET is He comes for the servant at a time in which the servant does not expect. Verse 36 He doesn't know ... because it is a SECRET.It is the style of God that His people's ignorance of some details of time be supplemented with moral readiness and obedient vigilance.

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Matthew 24:37 tells us that the immediately following verses take place with the Second Coming ? And that is confirmed by verse 42, verse 43 and verse 44.

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Verse 38 says " ... in those days BEFORE the flood" So a rapture BEFORE the great tribulation is not at all an outlandish understanding of His discussion there.Pay closer attention to verses 38 and 39 along with 37.

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Indeed, but there is no announcement, only signs - and signs that may only be recognised as such by those familiar with the warning. And it is explicitly stated that these events will follow the signs. Moreover the signs are precisely what the disciples are told to watch for. What good are they as signs if they arrive too late to be of any use ?

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The disciples ask for more things then just the signs. Signs are one matter among other things that they ask Christ about.But concerning verses 40 and 41 " at that time " is compared to that time - BEFORE the flood. So then it is reasonable to understand the call to watch and be ready pertains to that time BEFORE the events of the great tribulation.But I would not argue that there would then be absolutely NO indications that the completion of the age was near.Clearly in Revelation the great tribulation begins with the fifth trumpet.
The previous FOUR trumpets could be happening shortly before or while the first rapture of secrecy occurs. This corresponds to relative normality (though the world was not without some turmoil) in the days of Noah BEFORE the flood. While post tribulation times is conceivable, what is really weak is your insistence that pre-tribulation rapture simply cannot be interpreted here. That criticism is what is WEAK.It would not be my "preferred interpretation" for contextual reasons. Before the flood means to me to correspond to before the calamities of the great tribulation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Revelation 12 shows a Woman clothed with the sun, the moon underneath her feet and with a crown of twelve stars.I am going to state some things and probably have argue latter. This Woman symbolizes NOT MARY and NOT ISRAEL and not ONLY the new testament church. Rather she is a combination of three dispensations -1.) The crown of twelve stars upon her head signify the age of the patriarchs BEFORE the giving of the Law of Moses.2.) The moon underneath her feet signify the age of the Law of Moses. The Law is a reflection of the New Testament Grace. And the saints in grace have the Law of Moses subdued underneath their feet.This matter of the Moon under her feet does not mean disrespect. It means GRACE of the new covenant supersedes LAW.3.) The major part of her body is clothed with the Sun. This should signify the New Testament dispensation of Christ and grace.Therefore this Woman of universal light in Revelation 12 stands for the TOTALITY of God's elect on the earth in the past ages -Before the giving of the Law when the partriarchs are like a crown of dignity.
The time if the Law of Moses in the Old Covenant in the Old Testament.
The time of the New Testament grace which covers the majority of her body.The vision should remind us of Joseph's vision of he, his mother and father, and eleven brothers being God's elect body of saints on earth. The vision of Joseph saw also the Sun, Moon, and Stars providing universal light.So I like to call this Woman the Universal Bright Woman standing for the totality of God's elect people on earth throughout the ages.Now WITHIN her is another component. But this part is stronger. A MAN-CHILD. Throughout the ages in the Bible remnant, a minority of saints rose from the typical mediocrity to stand faitfhully for God's purpose. This is like the little Gideon's army in Judges. This is like the Levites chosen specifically for the priesthood. This is like the remnant of Jews which returned from Babylon to rebuild the city, the house and the temple of God.The Manchild also is like the those who overcome mentioned in the seven letters in Revelation two and three. That is from the typical surrounding weakness of God's people a remnant who overcome rise to the level of normality.They are not super spiritual as to be above the standard.
Rather they simply rise up TO the expected standard.
Paul said that through Christ we are more than conquerors.
This means that God's grace contains all that is necessary that His people might overcome and be victorious.It is abnormal that His saints would be defeated.
It is normal that they should be overcoming.This then is the meaning of the Woman with a Manchild she brings forth.
Both entities are the same Body. They are distinct though. Within the larger body is organically connected the smaller body.Within the Woman is the Manchild she travails to bring forth in birth.This is a short preliminary note as ground to interpret BOTH the Woman of Universal Brightness and her Manchild as CORPORATE and COLLECTIVE in nature.Interpretations that the Manchild is the individual Jesus Christ are good. But this is better. For it is God's intention that the OVERCOMERS would be living by Christ so as to be an enlargement of Christ and an extension of Christ.That is not in His unique work of redemption but in the co-work of their overcoming by living in the realm of Him and He living in them.

Skeptics often try to establish a Coach / Student relationship with Christians, as if the latter should seek guidance from the skeptic how to argue a case.Since some of your comments act as if I need to come to you for coaching how to present my case, I'll give priority to the more interesting comments of substance.You say the Manchild better represents the Man Christ in Revelation 19:11-16

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Because he seems to represent the figure in Revelation 19:11-16 who even you agree is Jesus.

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All things considered the Manchild better represents the ARMY that comes down with Christ as their Head, Leader, General. Indeed it is through Him that they overcome.Since the entire Body of Christ does not yet match Christ until the arrival of the full New Jerusalem, something like a Gideon's army of 300 (Judges chapters 6 through 8) fulfills this need as representatives of the whole.As quoted from handy website on Gideon's Army https://www.jw.org/...ons/books/bible-stories/3/gideons-armyThis principle of spiritual warfare is often seen in Scripture. The WHOLE Body of God's people do not rise to the challenge. But a remnant DO.So it is OK to say the Manchild is Jesus Christ. It is better to say it is Jesus Christ as He has become the life of a stronger component of the larger body of the people of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:10,11 does not praise Christ for what He has accomplished. Rather it praises a GROUP of people belonging TO Christ for what they have accomplished THROUGH His salvation. The praise fits the attainment of those who belong to Christ and have overcome THROUGH Christ's finished work.To argue that the Manchild should only be Jesus is good but shortsighted.
The one insisting that this has to be the case ignores that what Jesus is said to DO in Revelation 19:15 is perfectly reflected in the overcomers who will accompany Him.This is now repetition. Wonderful.And so also the armies which come with Him shepherd the nations with an iron rod as His co-kings. A lot of "he"s and "she"s have throughout the world history have overcome through Christ. And they will be rewarded to do as He does. Perhaps those who lack experience of association with Christ find this far fetched. To them the only see Christ in history as accomplishing anything for God.It is hard to argue with someone who is being only partially right.Paulk looks forward to the iron rod reigning of Christ the Head in Rev. 19:15. But the co-reigning of a rewarded corporate constiuent of Christ's in 2:26 is overlooked or deemed not important.Co-reigners with Christ, however, is important to the Bible's revelation. Yes, I left out the part here about them not receiving the mark of the beast. I left it out because it is the PRINCIPLE of the CO-REIGNING overcomers that is being highllghted, not the specifics of the beheaded during the reign of Antichrist.The PRINCIPLE of some of the mystical Body of Christ REIGNING WITH Christ is the principle that both Rev. 19, and Rev. 12 and Rev 2 alludes to.The armies which come WITH Christ have just MATCHED Christ in a WEDDING celebration FOR Christ and those who have made themselves ready. We can't help it if some yawn. But it is great reason for the church to rejoice.
And the marriage garment that these saints have also is the fighting garment for spiritual warfare they wear to accompany Christ and reign with Christ. A remnant selected from the ages will form a Gideon like smaller army and accompany Christ to conquer and reign over the nations.In the parable of Jesus about rewarding His servants, He says some will be given to rule over cities in their entering into the joy of the Lord during the millennium. Accompanying Christ and co-reigning with Christ are rewards to the Gideon like smaller army of overcoming believers. The Manchild is composed of such rewarded saints from both the Old Testament and New Testament ages.I would also point out that the rejoicing voice in Revelation 12 says that the kingdom has come NOW. That is at the taking up of the Manchild to God and to His throne. Yet still on earth great tribulation is raging.This situation matches that the victory obtained in this resurrection and rapture of deceased overcomers to Heaven is virtually the commencement of the kingdom. On earth, Christ is STILL waiting to come down and ARRIVE to start the millennial kingdom on earth. You requested "Bible STUDY" not "Tradition study". Get use to a better interpretation. The Manchild is a corporate entity of overcoming saints. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am a veteran of discussion forums of this type. And PaulK will now adopt an effective strategy which consists of him saying LITTLE and provoking me to respond by laboring to say MUCH.This lopsided exchange is advantageous to the guy who only writes a little and disadvantagous to the guy who takes a lot of time to work through objections. All he has to do is write a few words to stir up things.Its a good debating technique. And the one who writes more is liable to burn out sooner.Just thought I'd mention that I KNOW what is now going on between PaulK and myself.Anyway, I hope some useful things are gleaned by some readers.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I note that this is primarily about interpretations of the woman,

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Correct, as I am verbose and decided to limit the length of what I started.To understand the Manchild though it is good to understand the Woman.
I'll come back to this. 1.) She fled into the wilderness AFTER she gave birth. (v.6)
Neither Israel nor Mary fled to the wilderness AFTER the birth of Jesus.You may say Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt. But she took the baby Jesus with her. He was not taken FROM her up to heaven. 2.) The woman has other children which are called "the rest of her seed" (v.17) Jesus was the firstborn of Mary. The Devil did not immediately go make war with the other brothers and sisters of Jesus after His birth. 3.) The rest of her seed are identified as those Christians and keepers of the law. The better interpretation is that after the rapture of the resurrected Manchild collective, Satan will make war with Christians and Jews as the main culprits of the promises of God. At present I understand this combination to mean preserved Jews who are destined to turn to become Christ's and Christians who recognize Him. During the thousand two-hundred and sixty days of before the closing of the age.After Jesus was born, the brothers and sisters of Jesus could not really be said to have the testimony of Jesus YET. In fact some of His own siblings born latter didn't believe in Him during His earthly ministry. (John 7:5) we could say Jews who keep the commandments of God were persecuted by the Romans during the lifetime of Jesus. But Christians received persecution after the resurrection more so than immediately after His birth.If Paulk argues that the Manchild is Jesus we have to adopt this view:When Jesus was born in Bethlehem He was immediately caught up to Heaven.
Mary fled to a wilderness (without Jesus).
The rest of her children who were born after she RETURN to Israel were
objects of Satan's war on them.A better interpretation is that what could be considered WILDERNESS at the time of John then will in end times be a place where Jews and Christians are fleeing refugees from the armies of Satan's antichrist.The last verse of chapter 12 has Satan summoning UP the Antichrist to do his persecution of preserved Jews and Christians on earth after the resurrection and rapture of the corporate Manchild of overcomers.Remember that the divisions of chapters in the Bible are not promised to be inspired. But they are useful to divide up the Scriptures. And we should connect the LAST verse of chapter 12 to the FIRST verse of chapter 13 to get the effect. The beast out of the sea is the Antichrist.
The dragon that summoned him up out of the sea is Satan.The dragon has diadems upon its HEADS (12:3) - "on his heads seven diadems" .But the beast out of the sea has the diadems upon its HORNS \[B\](13:11) - "on his horns ten diadems" The first signifies authority to govern.
The latter signifies authority to EXECUTE and to KILL.Through Antichrist Satan makes war with the woman's seed on the earth during the three and one half years of the great tribulation. I think that would be forty two of the months as the Jews at that time calculated months. This I would have to review. But it is the same three and one half years of the 1260 days.He makes war with the saints and is permitted to overcome them. In chapter 12 it is a group who has OVERCOME the Devil. This cannot be the saints left on earth who are being overcome by the Antichrist. He will be wearing them out and wearing them down and killing some of them. All these descriptions of Antichrist's persecution in chapter thirteen matches quite well with what we are told Satan will do against the rest of the woman's seed in chapter twelve.This is the short time that Satan has come down to earth by angelic force to unleash his greatest anger at his loss.Those who dwell in heaven include Jesus. For He has not descended by this time. And Antichrist blasphemes those who dwell in heaven. This may mean that Antichrist openly chides Jesus for being in Heaven and insults those who have been raptured to Heaven. This is possibly the significance of 13:6. Enough of this!My real focus is on the VICTORY of the raptured collective who dwell in Heaven until they descend with Christ as His bridal army in chapter 19. If salvation has come NOW and Jesus is STILL in heaven then the KINGDOM coming and the AUTHORITY of God's Christ must more relate not to what is happening on earth but to the JOINING of Christ of His overcoming raptured people.Don't let anyone suggest that this makes no sense. It is consistent with too much of the Bible and makes sense in the realm of spiritual warfare.And THAT is all the time I have to write about this this morning.One final thing. Usually about now some grumble at me pretending to have made up these things by myself. So to avoid the accusation of plaguerizing such terms as, say, Universal Bright Woman, I learn much of this from the Recovery New Testament with its study notes.And you also may learn these things from some of the following books. The Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee.
The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee.
The King and the Kingdom of the Heavens an exposition of the book of Matthew by Watchman Nee.
The Overcomers by Witness Lee.
Rapture by D.M. Panton
The Judgment Seat of Christ by D.M. PantonBrowse the titles at Read and Search the Ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee | LSM Online Publications to see examples of writings which have been a help to me to discuss these matters.

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with very little said about the manchild as such. Which is certainly not a way to make a good case.
The more so when you have a,ready argued that the birth and taking up to Heaven cannot refer to Jesus - at the least a valid alternative explanation should have been provided then.

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Indeed the entire argument rests on what you think the symbolism means, which is hedged with uncertainty, and seems to be no more than opinion.

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This is certainly not a good case.

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Don't expect me to adopt you as my coach to instruct me HOW I should debate with you. Your advise may be too vested with self interest leaning towards YOUR opinion. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quoteEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That was very constructive advice Stile. Thanks.

Mistaken reply.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I am certainly not trying to do that. But you certainly need help.

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I'm afraid that what you offer us is "help" to misunderstand things there.
Or at best to understand some things there superficially.Whoever is appointed to reign over the nations MUST have met some QUALIFICATIONS to do so before God.Certainly Jesus Christ HAS. It is superficial to assume God is happy that NO ONE ELSE beside Him can co-share the responsibility.If I gather evidence from Scripture elsewhere to demonstrate this fact, you conveniently dismiss the evidence as "a non-sequitur" or irrelevant.This evasion impresses YOU. It doesn't impress me.If I point out words from the mouth of Jesus such as (for example) - "Non-sequitur" is your dodge of this relevant evidence. I do not PROMISE to convince you of anything. Let readers decide where the better case is.IF I point out words from the mouth of Jesus such as (for example) You shrug and dodge the relevant evidence as "non-sequitur".That is your choice. Don't expect me to be impressed to follow you.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Cont. with PaulKSomeone said "The kind of person you are determines the kind of Bible you have." There is some truth to that. Maybe you shrug the evidence as irrelevant because the FACT of His word of promise is irrelevant. I do not know how deep this apathy goes in you.If I submit further rationale for the understanding the those who OVERCAME in relates well to the PROMISE to those who overcome elsewhere, this too you dismiss as off the point.Perhaps your criteria is that the explicit detail of this should be there is chapter 12. But the whole Revelation is made known BY SIGNS (Rev. 1:1). The serious Bible student has to USE the Bible to interpret the Bible.So this SUDDEN mention of "And they overcame him [Satan]" ... WHO ELSE in the chapter might it better refer TO?Or do you hold that it is an irrelevant insertion which holds no importance to the chapter ? That would be shortsighted and tell me more about PaulK then about Revelation.You also fail to realise that the REAL battlefield between God and Satan is the very BEING of man. We are a battlefield. And Christ's victory OVER us is a stepping stone to His recovery of the earth.Now the EARTH was LOST to Satan because man stepped out from under God's ordination and authority. Why is it too difficult to grasped that the EARTH is regained again for God's kingdom by man voluntarily coming under God's authority?At least a Gideon like army gathered from Hades from different ages comprise ENOUGH to be resurrected and raptured to co-reign in the regaining of the earth for God's kingdom.You may dismiss as a non-sequitor that the MEEK are promised to inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5) "Non-sequitur" you cry ?
And you complain that I say you are missing the big picture ??If Matthew 5:5 seems too far away for you from Revelation 12, lets move in a little closer to Revelation 5:10,11 where a THEM and a are to reign on the earth. "Non-sequitur" - off topic - irrelvant are your unconvincing dodges.Let's look at the both 9 and 10 again. Now try to grasp here the logic. Through the PROMISE is to all the redeemed not ALL will immediately partake. There is the problem of "cheap grace" throughout the church age. And there is the problem of the substandard reaction to God's salvation going back through all history in the Old Testament.Come on now Paulk. SOME must overcome. SOME must rise to the standard of normality. Some maintain the testimony. And this is not insignificant. This is not cause to YAWN and dismiss this as not too important.It is part of the whole vision in Revelation 12. The entire mystical Body of Christ has travailed to bring forth some stronger component who react to God's salvation up to the standard of what He is able to do with them.This is important to the book of Revelation. The book ENDS with this counterpart MATCHING Christ, totally PARTNERING with Christ, BLENDING with Christ.The New Jerusalem of chapters 21 and 22 is the Universal Bright Woman of chapter 12. The Manchild is a stronger remnant WITHIN her. But at the close of the millennium in the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth, ALL the saved saints are matured up to the standard and collectively MATCH Christ.Stop crying "non-sequitur. The Bible is about Man the created in the image of God and ordained to have dominion with God. And what is foretasted in the millennium is full tasted in the eternal age. THEY shall reign FOREVER and EVER. Man's being - his soul - his mind, emotion, will is the cosmic battlefield. The victory OVER man by God as eternal life indwelling man is significant. It is not only the salvation of God over man but it is also the bringing in of God's authority and kingdom THROUGH this gained man.The creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God in Romans 8.The battlefield of man's being is the stepping stone to the gaining back of the earth under the man made in God's image endowed with God's authority to have dominion (Genesis 1:26,27) .And that is all the time I have at this moment.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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It is also something I haven’t disputed. And of very little relevance. So why keep going on and on about it ?

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Who are the "THEY" of Revelation 12:11 ?What evidence do you have to support your understanding ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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And yet another sign of your inability to read For comprehension.
I already answered that question in the post you replied to, but I’ll repeat it.

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Not impressed with bluster.So I take your answer below to be what I am after.

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Obviously it is the brethren first mentioned in verse 10. Really, simple literacy is enough to see that.

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The "brethren" indicated are the persecuted saints as "the rest of her seed" mentioned in verses 17. They don't appear to be in any position to REJOICE under such severe opposition. If this is the BRETHREN you refer to, they are more under the authority of the Devil still, suffering from his persecution and warring.Your answer is pretty poor. It much LESS persuasive then the THEY symbolized as a Manchild, who overcame Satan (rather than be under his CONTINUED attack)The Woman is harrassed. The brethren of the Manchild brought forth from the Woman have overcome. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The ones who were to rejoice were the heavens and all who dwell in them (verse 12). Obviously saints being persecuted on Earth don’t qualify.

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The is the ones in heaven were just raptured to Heaven and to God's throne - the Manchild. The contrast is between THEIR victory and the REST OF HER SEED of the Woman's prolonged persecution.You also miss the connection between this group going UP and the angels (who serve them) lead by Michael driving DOWN finally, the Devil.How did the rejoicing human dwellers GET up to heaven ?Did they ascend to heaven BEFORE the Lord Jesus as the Woman's son ascended up to heaven ?What evidence do you have that before Jesus Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there were human heaven dwellers ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Folks what we have in Revelation 12 is Satan doing his accusing work against the saints of God. He has done this accusing from the days of Job (when Satan accused Job before God) and Zechariah where the Slanderer (accused the high priest Joshua before the Angel of Jehovah).In the oldest book of the Bible we see Satan is still free to appear in heaven somehow to accuse God's saints before God. He also accuses God before the saints on earth.He ever stands ready to prevent the STRONGER component of the people of God from coming forth - beginning with Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God down to all of the saints of Christ, and also the Old Testament saints of course.Now since the saints are not perfect, there is often some GROUND for accusation. The saints do have failures.Satan accuses false failures. But he accuses also failures which have some ground. The reason for exalted rejoicing is the in spite of Satan's accusation day and night a REMNANT are so pleasing to God that God raptures them up to Himself. In a sense they are too good for the world.Their following Christ at the cost of even their lives renders them victorious. For Satan's ground of attack always lies in man's self love and preservation of his fallen soul-life.The majority of God's people fall below the standard of overcoming. But in a minority follow THE Victor Jesus (who overcame the world) to overcome THROUGH His indwelling and grace empowering them.What a reason for God's people to rejoice. SOME are victorious and are caught up in rapture as a strategic army - a STRONGER component of the surrounding WEAKER body of God's saints.When this group is raptured, no one knows. But after the rapture of such an entity and any corresponding LIVING saints of this type, there will be three and one half years to the end of the age.Those believers alive and LEFT on earth, being caught off guard, will then pass through the terrific heat of the great tribulation of three and one half years. The pre-tribulation secretive rapture is like a Normandy invasion of a remnant of victorious saints of God. It strategic defeat to Satan causes him to be further limited and to be filled with desperate RAGE against man in general and against God's saints on earth in particular.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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And according to you that is the saints in verses 11-12 - the saints you said were dead and now say are still alive on Earth and being persecuted in verse 17.

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I don't think you yourself understand what you are writing.A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.A PORTION - a STRONGER component is resurrected and caught up to heaven.
The LARGER PORTION - a WEAKER component remain on earth to be sorely persecuted.Don't obfuscate.The ACCUSER of our brothers has been cast DOWN at the catalyst of the overcomers being caught UP. Their GOING UP is the catalyst for Satan coming DOWN (not of his own will but by the force of spiritual WARFARE).The PRINCIPLE of a remnant of God's people reigning and overcoming in spiritual warfare is seen many times in the Bible.

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That was your evidence that the manchild was more than a single person. Funny how you suddenly change your mind on the issue.

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The evidence that the Manchild is a corporate person was given that what the Manchild is promised to do is what OVERCOMERS are promised.And that was shown in Revelation 2:26 and other places which you want to ignore. You have many promises in the Bible that that those who overcome via God's salvation will represent His authority.Throughout the ages, and from every age, SOME have died meeting this criteria.They ALL TOGETHER, will be resurrected and raptured as a collective Manchild.I'm consistent. You're the one waffling around for a better interpretation.

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And you don’t even have a sensible reason.

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Plenty of sensible reason has been given.

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You can’t change the fact that the brethren of verse 10 are those who overcame in verse 11 by assuming that they are also those who are persecuted in verse 17.

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I didn't write anything of that kind.To miss early rapture is to be in DEFEAT.
To obtain early rapture is to be in OVERCOMING.The OVERCOMING go up to heaven.
The DEFEATED go up latter after learning some great tribulation lessons.
These are lessons which they SHOULD have learned in the daily life of no particular world-wide calamity.You are attempting to confuse the ones TAKEN with the ones LEFT and blame it on me somehow (???)

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I made no claim about whether the dwellers in Heaven were human or not.

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Oh, you made no claim and took no position on that.
No position is usually the easier position to defend.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.