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Author Topic:   A Different Creation Model
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 16 of 20 (849161)
02-26-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
02-26-2019 2:19 AM


GDR writes:

Maybe the totality is infinite and ultimately isn’t subject to the entropy that we experience now. As we know it is meaningless to talk about time before the Big Bang it seems to me that if the totality is infinite it would explain just why it is that there was no time before the Big Bang.

Tangle writes:

Basically you can invent anything here you like. But I'm not sure why you would.

Why does anybody suggest anything? I'm glad that science proposes things that sound outlandish, and then go out and try and prove it. I'm not in a position to prove anything but that shouldn't stop me from presenting ideas and seeing what other people think. Isn't that kinda the point of this forum?

Tangle writes:

I think you need to start again with this 4% business. You're taking it too literally. We can't percieve the 4%. We have only deduced it. To all intents and purposes, rounded to the nearest whole number our senses tell us about 0% of the universe. Our intelligence has calculated to 4% (if that's the right number.)

Please explain further. I understand the 4% to be that which we are able to perceive by our 5 senses.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2019 2:19 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 3:05 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 02-27-2019 11:27 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 17 of 20 (849162)
02-26-2019 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-26-2019 7:22 AM


Re: Jesus As Observer
Phat writes:

GDR, I can appreciate your continuing efforts to somehow tie your beliefs in with current theories of physics, science, and cosmology. Tangle may consider us a bit odd, but I appreciate that he attempts to go along with it all and offer his viewpoint without the clutter that our "religious pin-holing" applies to the discussion. My contribution is a pet theory that I developed after I read about the Observer Effect in quantum mechanics. I basically came up with the notion of Jesus (as the only human being believed to exist through eternal time) being necessary as the "observer" that changed the essential nature of the behavior of all electrons during the formation of the universe as we know it. Am I as whacky as some of the newbies that post in the science threads around here?

Thanks Phat. I see the Bible as only one place where we can learn about God, but that we are can also learn about good from other people, creation itself and our own perceptions. In the end it is about belief, faith and how we view our role in this world.

In the OP I do see an argument that could be made about how God might have created and might connect with our world. However, even if it is correct it would not rule out an atheistic answer. It would however answer some questions about basic theism.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-26-2019 7:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 18 of 20 (849163)
02-26-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
02-26-2019 1:38 PM


caffeine writes:

As pointed out above by Tangle, we don't really perceive most of the 4%. Our understanding of it is based on its effects on the infinitesimal fraction of reality we do perceive. There are indeed different senses perceiving different parts of reality - there are animals which can directly sense changes in magnetic or electrical fields that we can't; there are animals that can see wavelengths of light that we can't, there are animals that can detect all manner of chemical traces that we can't. All of this stuff would be within the 4%, though - that's how we're able to understand it.

Thanks for that. With the dawn of modern science the world keeps sounder stranger and stranger.

I often wonder if animals don't have a sense or senses that we know absolutely nothing about. Right off topic is the fact that it is heartbreaking the way our animals are abused and particularly the ones that are destined for our dinner tables.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 02-26-2019 1:38 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 20 (849166)
02-27-2019 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by GDR
02-26-2019 7:55 PM


GDR writes:

Why does anybody suggest anything? I'm glad that science proposes things that sound outlandish, and then go out and try and prove it. I'm not in a position to prove anything but that shouldn't stop me from presenting ideas and seeing what other people think. Isn't that kinda the point of this forum?

Well ok, but without actual knowledge about how things work and the ability to think in ways that grounded in that knowledge what you have is just science fantasy. It makes for good fiction but it's not science. The knowledge that there's an enormous gap in our understanding of matter and energy doesn't allow us to fill that gap with just anything at all. It must start with what we know.

Please explain further. I understand the 4% to be that which we are able to perceive by our 5 senses.

We can only percieve a tiny fraction fraction of the universe with our own senses. Surely that's obvious? Our senses are localised pretty much to this planet and close astral neighours. And even here we are extremely limited. We can't see the very small or the very distant, we can only see a small part of the radio spectrum - no UV no infra red, no gamma, no x-rays. We can't hear outside a small range and our other senses are extremely localised.

Our knowledge of the universe is not directly from our senses it's from our intelligent brain which we use to design instruments to make up for our lack of them and to calculate models that we can eventually test. We're no longer even capable of calculating the models ourselves - we have to use machines to do it for us. Our reach into knowledge about the universe is extended almost totally artificially.

Our explanations of what we find are intangible - they exist only in our brains. The 96% of missing dark matter and energy is not something anyone can ever sense, it's a mathematical calculation based on how we've modelled the forces we think are making it work. We'll work out what it is in a while, but it won't change anything in our lives, we'll just know a bit more about how stuff works.

Just for completeness, whatever it is, it won't be god :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 02-26-2019 7:55 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8838
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 20 (849176)
02-27-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by GDR
02-26-2019 7:55 PM


Senses
Please explain further. I understand the 4% to be that which we are able to perceive by our 5 senses.

As others have noted (sort of) we don't sense anything like 4% of the universe with our 5 senses. It might be more like 0.00000000000000004% (actually probably a lot lower). Most of the "normal" matter of the universe is way, way to far away to "see". We can "see" maybe 3 galaxies of the 100's of billions that are there.

For all the rest we use instruments of many sorts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 02-26-2019 7:55 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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