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Author Topic:   FREE WILL....... or is it.
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 58 (30597)
01-29-2003 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by funkmasterfreaky
01-29-2003 4:54 PM


What he knows, does not have an impact on what I choose.
Er... yes it does. If he *already* knows *infallibly*, then your impression of having free will is an illusion.
As John said, either free will exists or infallible foreknowledge does, or neither, but *not* both.
A formal proof of which can be found at
http://forum.darwinawards.com/index.php?s=591cd7c52ac8b95...
Suppose God knows infallibly you will choose A not B. You step up to the plate - "Hmmm...shall I have A or B? How about B" Well, you just proved God wrong, didn't you? *If* that's impossible, then you have in reality only 1 choice, and any impression to the contrary is misleading.
[This message has been edited by Chavalon, 01-29-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-29-2003 4:54 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Peter, posted 01-30-2003 4:26 AM Chavalon has replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 58 (30718)
01-30-2003 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peter
01-30-2003 4:26 AM


The proof in the link I referenced in my previous post shows that free will and infallible foreknowledge are logically incompatible, regardless of the mechanism by which the infallible foreknowledge occurs, be it magic, existence out of time, or whatever.
...the events had to unfold in the way that they did.
That's the definition of infallible.
We can only define infallibility with respect to the time that we experience. There is no way to access or know about other timelines.
[This message has been edited by Chavalon, 01-30-2003]

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 Message 20 by Peter, posted 01-30-2003 4:26 AM Peter has not replied

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 Message 25 by shilohproject, posted 01-30-2003 1:04 PM Chavalon has replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 58 (30737)
01-30-2003 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by shilohproject
01-30-2003 1:04 PM


Hi shilohproject-
This very topic was one of our discussion pieces and, as I recall, the Prof.'s conclussion was that it was all pointless because one of the major points was unproovable in the first place, i.e. inerrant foreknowledge, and the second was overly clouded by external influences to really be established, i.e. free will.
I'm sure your prof. knows better than me, but anyway I agree.
The argument I'm using does not assume either free will or infallible foreknowledge. In fact its author (who is a logician) regards both as unprovable in priciple.
Either *or neither* may be true - we don't have any known way to settle that point - but it can be said that it is logically impossible for both to be the case.
[This message has been edited by Chavalon, 01-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by shilohproject, posted 01-30-2003 1:04 PM shilohproject has replied

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 Message 28 by shilohproject, posted 01-30-2003 4:32 PM Chavalon has replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 58 (30761)
01-30-2003 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by shilohproject
01-30-2003 4:32 PM


If a=b then a-b=0 thus dividing by a-b gives meaningless results. Neither mathematics nor logic are invalidated by tricks like this.
A lot like a dad watching his 132 lb. freshman son go out for the varsity football team, dreaming of playing offensive tackle. Oh well, you don't stop him, but you do keep the medical insurance current.
But if the dad were an omniscient God he would know perfectly well whether that insurance was going to turn out to be necessary or not. Rather that influencing the outcome, it would constrain it.
Where is the flaw in Delphi's proof? The argument from incredulity just isn't good enough.
For those unable to follow the link, here is the proof:
Free Will vs. Predestination
In fairness, however, I will provide a formal presentation of the argument I am making here. I fear this shall be rather lengthy of necessity, as such formal argumentation normally is.
(The reasons for the numbering and for the repetitions will become clear in the second half of this post.)
1 1.1 It is possible to know infallibly
beforehand that person A will
do X and free will exists.
(Hypothesis)
1.2
1.2.1 It is possible to know infallibly
beforehand that Person A will
do X and free will exists.
(Repetition of hypothesis 1.1)
1.2.2 It is possible to know infallibly
beforehand that person A will
do X.
(Extraction of first half of hypothesis.
If the hypothesis 1.2.1 is true,
then this also must be true.)
1.2.3 That which is known infallibly
is true.
(Hypothesis, already granted as
being true by you.)
1.2.4 It is possible to know infallibly
beforehand that person A will
do X and that which is known
infallibly is true.
(Conjunction of 1.2.2 and 1.2.3)
1.2.5 If it is possible to know
infallible beforehand that person
A will do X and that which
is known infallibly is true, then
person A will do X.
(Logical consequence of 1.2.4.)
1.2.6 Person A will do X.
(1.2.4 is true, therefore 1.2.5 must
be true, therefore this must be true.)
1.3 Therefore, If it is possible to
know infallibly beforehand that person
A will do X and free will exists,
then person A will do X.
(Conclusion starting with hypothesis 1.1
and proceeding with argument 1.2.)
1.4 Person A will do X.
(Given hypothesis 1.1 and conclusion 1.3,
this must follow.)
1.5 Free will exists.
(Extraction of second half of hypothesis.
If the hypothesis 1.2.1 is true, then this
also must be true.)
1.6
1.6.1 Free will exists.
(Repetition of 1.5.)
1.6.2 If free will exists then
person A will do X or it is false
that person A will do X.
(Definition of free will, law of
excluded middle.)
1.6.3 Person A will do X or it is
false that person A will do X.
(1.6.1 specifies the premiss
of 1.6.2, therefore the consequence
of 1.6.2 must be true.)
1.6.4
1.6.4.1 Person A will do X or it is
false that person A will do X.
(Repetition of 1.6.3)
1.6.4.2 It is false that person
A will do X.
(Hypothesis)
1.6.4.3 Person A will do X
(Repetition of 1.4)
1.6.4.4 Person A will do X and it is
false that person A will do X.
(Combination of 1.6.4.3 and 1.6.4.2)
This is a contradiction, and
so cannot be true.
1.6.5 Therefore, it is false that person A
will do X or it is false that person A
will do X.
(Since the statement in 1.6.4.1 leads to
a contradiction at 1.6.4.4, the statement
at 1.6.4.1 must be false.)
1.6.6 Person A will do X or it is false that
person A will do X and it is false that
person A will do X or it is false that
person A will do X.
(This is the logical combination of 1.6.3
and 1.6.5)
This is a contradiction, and
so cannot be true.
1.7 Therefore it is false that free will exists.
(The hypothesis that free will exists stated in
1.6.1 leads to a contradiction at 1.6.6, and so
the hypothesis must be false.)
1.8 Therefore free will exists and it is false
that free will exists.
(Combination of statements at 1.5 and 1.7)
This is a contradiction, and
so cannot be true.)
2. Therefore, it is false that it is possible to
know infallibly beforehand that person A will
do X and free will exists.
Under a de Morgan law, this can be shown to be equivalent to stating that,
It is false that it is possible to know
infallibly beforehand that person A will do
X or it is false that free will exists.
[This message has been edited by Chavalon, 01-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by shilohproject, posted 01-30-2003 4:32 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by shilohproject, posted 01-30-2003 7:49 PM Chavalon has not replied

  
Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 58 (33711)
03-05-2003 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Primordial Egg
03-04-2003 4:28 PM


Re: Road to Damascus?
Hang on, PE, are you saying that you think free will can be described as the choice of one course of action out of a total of one (1) possibilities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-04-2003 4:28 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-06-2003 7:47 AM Chavalon has not replied

  
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