Thermodynamics

How does the theory of evolution get around the 2nd law of thermodynamics? (The law that the universe is moving from order to disorder)In order for biological evolution to work simple species are supposed to "evolve" and build upward, becoming more complex. An apelike creature becoming human, for an example. But the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a law as proven as gravity, causes the opposite. We do not occasionally see gravity "fail", and witness objects falling off the earth. So how can TTOE continually break laws without question? I am very interested in an evolutionist's view on this subject, so if you guys could answer that would be great. Thanks

All living things seem to violate the second law. We are born, we grow and continue growing into something greater. But in the end, all things die anyway in accordance with the law. So for 80 years (or however long i live) i seem to be winning the fight, but ultimatly my body will degenerate until death.

So are you saying that even though things are breaking up, the peices gather together to form something better?

But i dont understand how things progressed when faced with such an uphill battle?

Your right, the sun provides so much energy to the earth that it can afford to let some decay because of entropy. But all the energy in the universe means nothing if its not directed right. Just because the energys there doesnt mean complex things will develope. How is the suns energy sustaining evolution?

Gday Coragyps.
My dictionary (The Oxford) describes entropy as "a measure of the disorganization or degradation of the universe" (among other meanings of course, but hey thats the way our language works!)So thats the way i was using it. Yes the elephant will grow for a time but thats because its programmed into its DNA already. Im talking about totally new genes being written and organisms growing with the law of disorder over their heads.

Yes but sugar forming from already existing complex elements isnt impressive. The formation of THOSE original building blocks is. Im talking about the formation of the building blocks themselves.Although id rather just discuss biology for now and geology later, we can just discuss everything if you guys want. This is interesting stuff

Gday Jacen, sorry this if my first day on the site so im not surprised that nothing im asking is new. But im not 100% familiar with all that creationists claim and all that evolutionists claim. Thats why im mainly asking questions to see what everyone thinks

So what are your views on the 2nd law in regards to biological evolution Jacen?

The only reference i saw to the second law was that creationists shouldnt associate it with the "fall". And nothing to do with what i was saying

Thanks Percy!But yeah, i never said i was a creationist, just someone sceptical of TTOE and curious what evolutionists views are. We can all agree that in the end the entire universe will be just heat energy. But i want to know how the universe got that start, how dust and elements built up into trees, how "simple" (and i use the term loosly because even the most simple organisms are more complex than anything man has made) grew out of the water.CRASHFROG "Well, wait, now. Complexity and order are not the same thing. The second law says nothing about complexity. In fact, complexity and order are almost the opposite thing. Ordered systems are very, very simple. Complex systems are very disordered."Why do complex systems have to be disordered? Look at humans, we are incredibly complex beings but with order to match. Two eyes, two arms, two legs ect ect. We are very eficient machines! And the complexity of our eyes alone (i bet you get this one a lot ) i beleive defy evolution.But back to this point. While your right on them not being the same thing, they seem to go together (for whatever reason) in this world anyway

I dont see how what i said in "Message 45" makes me a creationist. Its been years since iv read creationist material (excepting the quick skim through the link one of the fellas posted earlier on)so if i ever do word anything like the typical creationist, its must be subconsciously. But i am not very familiar with many creationist arguments aside from the basic questions most people would think of if they were interested in this topic. (You mentioned a few, transitional fossils ect)And my comment on what Crashfrog said? That was my own thought, it was not influenced by anything. It doesnt take a genius to notice that humans are both COMPLEX and ORDERED. Am i wrong with this? Anyone?But yeah,just to set it sraight now, yes i am an open minded person. Skeptical, but not totally stubborn. If i am given a full, STRAIGHT answer that i am happy with...well then im willing to beleive anything.

And yeah, i was talking about heat death

No not yet. Im still not happy with the responses i got.
My question is "how can beings become more ordered AND complex (yes, i think that the complex beings of this earth are very well ordered. My personal opinion) when their is a law over their heads telling them to break down and tear apart. (Sorry guys im sure your finding me frustrating but if you give me a good straight answer i will listen to reason)

I apologize if i havnt worded this right, but i do mean for it to apply to progressive, biological evolution.Yes, a single cell to an adult is an amazing increase in both order and complexity. But it is following a code programmed into its genes. However, it only seems to defy the law until a certain point. Then the body gets frail, organs shut down and death occurs. We are always fighting a battle in which we ultimately lose, but its only in the last leg of the race that the 2LT gets ahead.But (and ill assume evolution is true here) our bodies along with our code did not always exist. How did the original organisms, without miles of pre-coding defy this law before passing its genes onto the next generation?Now lets assume that in a localised event something does grow, manages to reproduce and THEN dies. But then the next generation has to manage the same thing, and so on. Over millions of generations this law is being broken long enough until the code is written for all beings to beat it for similar amounts of time (depending on species)But even in a localised situation the law is defied so many times over such a long period that i dont beleive it is possible anymore. Its like if i was playing poker and my hand was a royal flush. It is believable, but odds are i couldnt do it again. But what if i was to do it again? And again? It goes from being something that is beleivable only in small doses to fantasy.