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Author Topic:   Teaching the Truth in Schools
Rei
Member (Idle past 7041 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 61 of 169 (70334)
12-01-2003 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Martin J. Koszegi
12-01-2003 3:11 PM


quote:
Is it scientific to leave the conceivability open that nature itself could yield evidence that could suggest a supernatural origin (complexity, order, etc., seemingly beyond statistical explanation for the time alotted), or more scientific to, at the onset, predetermine that the vehicle we must use to establish our ideas, i.e., nature, is all there is?
Science does leave open this possibility. It has not yet shown itself to be necessary. Each new gap that we have probed down into has revealed not a god, but more rules, each of which are consistant across application. Even quantum physics, in which particles do not have certain values as specific and predictable as we would like, fall into a statistical curve of their ranges of values.
quote:
And, as Phillip Johnson asked (in Darwin on Trial), "Does non-science necessarily mean nonsense?"
To a layperson who has not taken the time to understand it? Probably. To anyone willing to invest a few years of their life into an in-depth education in the particular science, taught by people knowlegable about the subject? Never.
If you go to college and major in something - and put forth the effort needed to succeed - you'll understand the What, Why, and How, regardless of the subject. If you don't? Don't expect to just be able to listen in and follow what took people years of school and often decades of experience in the field, analyzing millions of discoveries and experiments (past and present), to learn.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 12-01-2003 3:11 PM Martin J. Koszegi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 01-04-2004 11:24 PM Rei has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7041 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 63 of 169 (70338)
12-01-2003 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Martin J. Koszegi
12-01-2003 2:52 PM


quote:
As for something being categorized as theory and fact and existing only in peoples' minds, I'm sure you can think of examples of this from your own knowledge of history, right(?): erroneous ideas that became established beliefs (theory/fact), but that were later found to be erroneous (existing only in peoples' minds from the earlier time). That was all I meant.
And they were found out as such by scientists, through the scientific method. Take the phlogiston theory (disproven by mass measurements of burning objects), or the theory that the sun's energy was from gravitational collapse (contradictory evidence was given by radioisotope dating and abnormal measurements, and finally a method that works (fusion) was discovered).
Here, you're arguing against something that is not at the forefront of a new science; it is virtually universally accepted, apart from a few hundred people (if you assume that there are 10 times as many who remain silent as the ones who are vocal, a few thousand), among the world's millions of biologists, archaeologists, paleontologists, etc. While refinements to theories that have lasted for a long time do occur (for example, Newtonian phyiscs to relativistic physics), to survive to the present day requires that an incredibly huge amount of evidence need to be better reconciled by an alternativee theory.
Such a replacement theory for evolution has not been postulated. Not only have most creationist publications been based on bad (often deliberately bad) and outdated information (check the dates on papers referenced by, say, the ICR), but their reports often contradict each other. For example, for years creationists pushed that the world is young because there is too little helium in zircons. Now they've been circulating a paper postulating that the world is young because there is too much helium in zircons. There is no theory, just a mishmash of bad information that not only contradicts itself, but the very book it is supposed to be defending. They typically do it by abusing areas of research that haven't received much study (or hadn't at the date of publication) or are problems that have huge, complex calculations behind them (such as helium retention rates in zircon crystals at different temperatures and pressures, the propagation of oscillations through the sun, Earth's dynamo, etc). At the same time, they ignore the copious amounts of data gathered in the past several hundreds of years by millions of people, instead looking for their god in the next gap.
quote:
I don't think that mutations are very good vehicles to look to in order to explain the development of life. Is the net result of mutations, improvement and expansion of genetic possibilities?
No. The net result of mutations *and* selection (and often other factors) is "improvement" (which is only relative in a given context, and contexts change across this planet and through time) of genetic possibilities.
Read, for example, about Galapagos. Mutation alone would not have created the artwork. Mutation *and* selection created it.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 12-01-2003 2:52 PM Martin J. Koszegi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 01-04-2004 11:27 PM Rei has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7041 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 122 of 169 (72438)
12-12-2003 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Martin J. Koszegi
12-11-2003 11:45 PM


Re: Agreement by Creationists and Biologists
quote:
about the nuclear processes that occur in the unseen center of the Sun,
Apparently you haven't read much Answers In Genesis. "Creation Scientists" have continually made ridiculous claims about the sun based on their presupposition of a 6,000 year old world that get utterly shot down every time (ah, the neutrino one was quite amusing... they weren't able to "spin" that one (spin.. get it? ha... ha?))
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 12-11-2003 11:45 PM Martin J. Koszegi has not replied

  
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