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Author Topic:   What happens after the oil is gone?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 79 (616863)
05-24-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
05-24-2011 7:02 PM


Re: Is this true?
Is that true?
Yes, by definition. There aren't mines of gaseous hydrogen, you have to expend energy to electrolyze water.
It's like charging a battery, in other words. A rechargable battery is a great energy storage system but it's not like you can just mine charged batteries; they have to be produced and then filled with energy from some other source.
Hydrogen is another kind of battery, really. Oil is technically a kind of battery, too - it's million-year-old stored sunlight - but it was stored by natural processes. Using oil is kind of like spending a trust fund - much easier than getting a job.
When we run out of stored sunlight, there's only the sunlight we're currently getting. That's all the "new" power we could ever have access to. But the radiative flux that reaches the Earth's surface is still several orders of magnitude ahead of the energy requirement of human civilization.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 79 (616871)
05-24-2011 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coragyps
05-24-2011 7:36 PM


Re: Is this true?
My understanding is that hydrogen doesn't have much storage density; there's less chemical energy in a bottle of pressurized hydrogen than the mechanical energy stored as pressure! Metal hydrides are better, apparently, but I don't know much about them. (Not my cup of chemistry.)
For the most part, I think the "buzz" about hydrogen economy is about one thing - you can pump it into a car like gas.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 79 (616883)
05-24-2011 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
05-24-2011 9:33 PM


Re: Is this true?
Try dragging a three-horse trailer into the back woods with public transit.
Nobody lives in the "back woods", Coyote. Despite the lionization of "rural America", less than 20% of Americans have actually chosen to live there, what with the drug problems, rampant unemployment, terrible provision of public services, awful schools, and unavailability of culture.
The silly little libs graduating from Yale and Harvard have no idea what goes on in the real world.
The "real world" is in the cities, Coyote, and it's you "rural Americans" who don't know anything about them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:33 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:58 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 59 of 79 (616902)
05-24-2011 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coyote
05-24-2011 9:58 PM


Re: Is this true?
What you are describing is the cities.
Nope - drugs (meth, mostly), shitty schools, and unemployment is the rural America. Maybe you have to be from there to know it.
And you are wrong, there are a lot of people who find the "back woods" superior to cities in many respects.
Hardly anybody, though. That's the point - you rurals aren't salt-of-the-earth "real Americans", you're a small out-of-touch minority who nonetheless insist on everything else - especially urban policy - being run according to your wishes. Frankly a lot of us semi-urban types are tired of subsidizing your decadent lifestyles.
And like New Orleans, most folks would just sit there and wait for the gubmnt to come save them.
Of course, rurals are basically "gubmint come save me" when it comes to farm subsidies, and rural America sucks down about 5 dollars in Federal and state tax expenditures for every 1 dollar paid in taxes by rural communities, individuals, and businesses. You should be a lot less concerned about people trapped in the Superdome with no transportation, food, or water and a lot more concerned about how your unsustainable rural lifestyle continues only by picking my pocket.

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 Message 44 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:58 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 10:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 79 (616907)
05-24-2011 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Coyote
05-24-2011 10:20 PM


Re: Is this true?
Try climbing a few dozen miles of bad roads, rising some five thousand feet, with a heavy trailer and three fat horses with all their tack and the camping gear.
Who the fuck gives a shit about horses, Coyote? That's nothing more than one of your rural America elitist affectations. Do you think the average American knows shit-all about horses?
Man, how out of touch with the average American can you get?
(Also - what, are your horses just lazy? If it's so important for them to get up a hill, let them out to walk.)

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 71 of 79 (616914)
05-24-2011 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Coyote
05-24-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Is this true?
I see we're at the part where the facts offend your delicate, elitist sensibilities - so they're simply rejected.
Just the sort of narrow parochialism rurals are known for, I'm afraid.

This message is a reply to:
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