God's existence cannot be proven logically!

quote:

---

God must exist outside of time. Otherwise, s/he would be constrained by time and could only act in a time sequenced manor. This would make god subservient to time and time itself a power higher than god. Thus, god, by definition the highest existing power, must be above, outside of, and independent of time.

---

Aren't logical arguments supposed to start with something real? I don't see that anyone can be subservient to time. It is a nice poetic way of saying we can't stop time, but I don't understand time as something that can have power.I don't see why God needs to be independent of time.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I'm really trying to understand the logical argument thing. So is this a proper set up?Tribal gods were personifications of nature
Yahweh was a tribal god
It follows that Yahweh was a personification of natureIf I understand correctly, what you are saying is that my conclusion (if written correctly) can be correct given the first two premises, but may not be a true statement if one or both of the premises are false. In the case of God, some may consider the first two premises true while others may not.So what really would need to be shown to be true would be the first two premises, correct?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

An omnipotent god could exist in time without being subservient to it.

---

How is anyone subservient to time?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So getting away from poetics, all it means is that we don't have control over the passage of time.Is there any evidence that God has control over the passage of time? Not speculation that if God is omnipotent or the highest power etc., but actual clues either from the Bible or elsewhere.Did he ever make it go slower or faster? Did he stop the passage of time from moving forward or did he cause it to go backward?I don't recall any passage that cover those issues.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Didn't he make time stop in the Old Testament somewhere? Made the sun stop dead in its tracks, or something? I think there is even a thread on it here. Or maybe it was makeing the sky go dark for some time or somethin like that, I can't recall right now.

---

Since we know the sun doesn't move, he had to stop the earth. Stopping the earth doesn't stop the passage of time. It may screw with the way we tell time, but not the actual passage of time, right? The people still fought, people still died, the people and living thing on the planet still aged. The passage really just says he gave them enough daylight to get the job done. Extreme daylight saving. I don't see the passage of time as something to step in and out of.

quote:

---

Isn't that enough though? If we're assuming god is omnipotent then we can't say that he is unable to do something, by definition.

---

I guess, if that is all you want to do. But that is a tired old argument and doesn't go anywhere. What's the point in speculating over what we can imagine?Humans perceive God as the most powerful god in the OT and it has evolved to all powerful or unlimited power. But unlimited power over what? Has God actually shown that he has power over the passage of time?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

The OT demonstrates that god, in fact, does not have control over time (and therefore must exist within time and be constrained by time.).

---

I agree that the OT doesn't describe God as being outside of time. Message 1
God can be omnipotent and still be constrained by the passage of time.Almighty and powerful when used in the OT carry the meaning of strength. God is the strongest. One can be strong without being outside of time.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

My post was an attempt to understand logical arguments, not present a position concerning whether Yahweh was a tribal god or not.Since this thread is about using logical arguments, continuing the position you present would be off topic.