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Author
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Topic: the book of job, and an unjust god
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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This article gives a very nice explanation of the Book of Job as a work of fiction. It shows the battle between faith in God and faith in dogma/tradition. Is God truly unjust or just not involved?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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It shows the battle between faith in God and faith in dogma/tradition. looks familar, but i'll give it a read when i'm not dead tired from work. that's sort of the angle i'm attacking it from.
Is God truly unjust or just not involved? is there a substantial difference between "why does god do bad things to good people?" and "why does god let bad things happen to good people?" it's probably that subtle difference than created the character of satan in the jewish religion. before, god did all of the bad stuff directly. but at a certain point, all of these kinds of actions started to attributed to a different power. and that power ahs really been growing. dualism slowly evolved out of this difference between doing evil, and allowing evil. i suppose i contend that there is no difference, when the character in question is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 12-19-2004 9:50 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2004 6:56 AM | | arachnophilia has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 18 of 181 (170006)
12-20-2004 2:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 14 by sidelined
12-19-2004 8:41 AM
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So,for instance,Clumbine,Jonestown,Crusades,cancer,Chernobyl,ethnic cleansing in numerous countries would be for whose greater good? i really don't know. i've heard it put in terms of the holocaust though. had hitler been only after world domination and not killing jews, the people who made the atomic bomb for the us would have all been in germany. and hitler could have had the bomb. so i kind of think of it as a lesser of two evils sort of thing. but like i was trying to point out, this belief is totally irrational. it's a religious thing.
Killing ones son that we might be forgiven is the work of sanity in your eyes? not exactly, no. i can't seem to make sense out of it.
First, the likelihood of christ even existing is highly debateable{and a good seperate topic I will persue}and second how is the death of a single man somehow a balancing act to forgive anyone of any attrocity? i do not disagree.
Forgiving of what? Sin? If you would lead a group would you flaunt the very law you impose? yet this is exactly what the bible records. look at a verse like this deuteronomy 32:35: "Vengeance is mine" here is something very clearly indicated as not for man, but for god. the position that god's law is followed by god is just silly. how do explain verses like that? god and man are different.
This is dictatorship religion ≠ democracy. where were you at the beginning of the universe? why should you get a vote?
I am appalled that this is the position you would take{only my opinion remember}since this I feel is the reason that such attrocities as we witness in the world originate and continue through time. what?
You did not answer the question my friend. neither does job. is there an answer? you can go on believing that god is just according to laws he imposes on men, and ignore the bible i suppose. or not believe in god.
Take a few days off to view some war footage of the beheadings of civilians and the death of children in a war zone.Better yet go witness firsthand and visualize in your mind your loved ones faces in each of those scenarios. ok, how do you answer it?
Then tell me you would still support such as being for the greater good.Make sure you are wrapped in warm blankets in a warm house well fed and enjoying life.Tell me this is not hypocrisy. no more than believing god killed his innocent son for you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by sidelined, posted 12-19-2004 8:41 AM | | sidelined has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by lfen, posted 12-20-2004 2:57 AM | | arachnophilia has replied | | | Message 30 by sidelined, posted 12-20-2004 9:13 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 19 of 181 (170007)
12-20-2004 2:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by berberry
12-19-2004 3:32 AM
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No, it didn't take me all the way to Samuel. I've had these debates about whether God is good or bad according to scripture for years. I've noticed here in Jesusland that the story of the Amalekites seems to make fundies squirm, perhaps because it's difficult to spin. It's a favorite of mine because it has the element of maniacal racism which makes God comparable to Hitler. yes, but aren't there several promised-land-type verses earlier that say very similar things? i mean, they were basically told to annhilate about a half-dozen races of people, and take their land.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by berberry, posted 12-19-2004 3:32 AM | | berberry has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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here is something very clearly indicated as not for man, but for god. the position that god's law is followed by god is just silly. how do explain verses like that? god and man are different. Well, I explain it as whoever said that was speaking for God and thus tacitly or explicitly claiming God's authority. What continues to amaze me is how many people go along with that. Even to someone as transparently sleazey as a faith healer, like the guy, I forget his name who kept getting caught with prostitutes and who cried and got a lot of money, or the guy who claimed God told him he had to die if he didn't raise a million dollars! People just go for this stuff. I don't see it as having anything to do with God, it's all about human guliblity and the priests ability to wield psychological power. On the other hand profound teachings of the east are so daunting that they are usually ignored in the west. "Vengenance is mine" sayeth the Lord is something most people can grasp and won't think about deeply. Huang-po on the other hand poses seemingly insurmountable difficulties:
To point out that the Original Mind of all sentient beings is Buddha was the only purpose of the Patriarch who came from the West. Thus suddenly, rather than gradually, pointing to Original Mind, the Patriarch showed that it was neither light nor dark and that without light there is no dark and that without dark there is no light. Consequently, it followed that there is no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance. As one enters the door of Dhyana, he should have this awareness and understanding. This discernment of reality is the Dharma ? which is no other than the awareness of Buddha as no Buddha and the Sangha as the Sangha of non-action and the realization of the Precious Three as One Body. If you seek to understand Dharma better, don't grasp the Sangha. You should realize that there is nothing to seek. Also, do not grasp the Buddha or the Dharma, for, again, there is nothing at all to seek. Don't grasp the Buddha in your seeking, for there is no Buddha. Don't grasp the Dharma in your seeking, for there is no Dharma. Don't grasp the Sangha in your seeking, for there is no Sangha. Such is the true and correct Dharma!" lfen
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 21 of 181 (170016)
12-20-2004 3:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
12-20-2004 2:57 AM
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no, i think the concept is entirely contradictory to their point. god and man cannot be held to the same standards if things are allowed (indeed required) of god that are not allowed of men.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by lfen, posted 12-20-2004 2:57 AM | | lfen has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Delete Why
quote:
is there a substantial difference between "why does god do bad things to good people?" and "why does god let bad things happen to good people?"
Delete the "why." Does God do bad things to good people or bad people? Does God let bad things happen to good people or bad people? Does God truly "do" anything? As the story of Job showed and we are witness to today, good/bad things happen to good/bad people. The stories in the Bible are written from a priestly point of view after the fact. They promote the ultimate authority, God. If I tell a preacher that God showed me that he (the preacher) was double dipping, he definitely does not agree. From his standpoint Satan is just using me to thwart God's mission. (Yeah, right!) Example: A large company has a CEO named Mr. Jones. Down the line are some VP's and then some Directors. One day one of the directors needs a job done a certain way and the workers disagree. The director says, Mr. Jones wants it that way. So the workers continue despite their reservations. The director used Mr. Jones' authority to get the workers to do what he wanted. Now the workers could have gone to Mr. Jones to check the story, but we are unable to check out another person's claim that God told them so. Hey, ultimate authority and no one can check it out. Religious people wrote the Bible. It is from their viewpoint, their perception, and about their respective religion and it changes to fit their needs. The means are to justify their end, not humanity's. So does God truly "do" anything?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-20-2004 1:00 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Whose best interests?
purpledawn writes: Religious people wrote the Bible. It is from their viewpoint, their perception, and about their respective religion and it changes to fit their needs. The means are to justify their end, not humanity's.
Some questions. 1) Are "religious" people human? Why are their needs so very different from yours? 2) What is the need of humanity that differs from the need of the "religious"?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2004 6:56 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 24 of 181 (170157)
12-20-2004 3:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
12-20-2004 1:00 PM
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Re: Whose best interests?
Very good questions that go to the heart of the issue.
1) Are "religious" people human? Why are their needs so very different from yours? There is little difference but the Bible was not written simply by religious people. As look at the books of the Bible you find different parts written by different people from differing communities and with different objectives. For example, if you look at Genesis you find that is is a compilation and compendium of various oral (or perhaps written) traditions from different perspectives. Part of it is written from the perspective of a Priestly Class trying to design a bureaucracy, others by Nationalists trying to create a Nation, still others reflect the varying points of view of the settled farmers versus the nomadic herdsmen.
2) What is the need of humanity that differs from the need of the "religious"? It's not so much an us versus them situation. Rather it's more of a detective story. What is not included is as significant as what is included. What we see in John in particular is an effort to revise the prior Gospels to change the orientation from a Jewish Sect into a Christian Religion. In Job we see two themes, one from a Priestly Class trying to explain why bad things happen to good people, the other telling folk that if something bad does happen, it's because GOD wants it that way.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-20-2004 1:00 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 25 of 181 (170166)
12-20-2004 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
12-20-2004 1:00 PM
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Re: Whose best interests?
Fascinating. quote:
I wrote:
Religious people wrote the Bible. It is from their viewpoint, their perception, and about their respective religion and it changes to fit their needs. The means are to justify their end, not humanity's.
I say religious people and you (I assume by your questions) include everyone whose ever acknowledged a god. (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt) I said religious people and I was talking about the priests of the OT, which I mentioned earlier that it was written from their viewpoint. Needless to say my group is much smaller. I used humanity as equivalent to mankind, maybe that was incorrect, but that was my point. Do you truly think that the priest(s) who wrote Leviticus (which theory has it that it was possibly written after the fall of the northern kingdom) was thinking of all mankind when he was writing? Best case he was thinking of his own people (Hebrews/Israelites/Jews). Worse case he was thinking of job security/livelyhood.
quote:
Are "religious" people human?
Yes, with all the fears and foibles that go along with that position.
quote:
Why are their needs so very different from yours?
They need religion.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-20-2004 1:00 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 26 of 181 (170171)
12-20-2004 3:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by sidelined
12-18-2004 9:18 AM
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Sidelined writes: If law does not apply to god then how can he become angry at those who see this as unjust?In the christian world what is the compensation for the loss of,say,ones complete family in a war?Do we not find is questionable that speculation such as this is made by people in relativly peaceful countries who do not have to experience the degradation and fear on a daily basis. Imagine your position on this if armed strangers were to come in and force you to witness the death of each of your closest family by placing a .45 to their temple and pulling the trigger while your were seeing the horror in their eyes.Imagine it was your son or daughter? And then tell me the ends justify the means.Tell me that god was just. There are many, many atrocities that happen daily to both believers and non-believers. One thing that has not been mentioned, and I believe to be of paramount importance, is that physical death is not the end. Indeed, if physical death is the ultimate destination of everyone, Christians' (and others) faith is in vain. Resurrection, however, is the glorious hope of the justified and the secret dread of the wicked. The one into reward, the other into everlasting punishment.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by sidelined, posted 12-18-2004 9:18 AM | | sidelined has not replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 27 of 181 (170175)
12-20-2004 4:03 PM
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Arachnophilia, I apologize for not responding right away. I am currently going through the Book of Job again to address your points.
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 28 of 181 (170264)
12-20-2004 7:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
12-18-2004 12:36 PM
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berberry writes: If one wants to make the case that God is unjust, one has only to read 1 Samuel 15. God orders Israel to attack and utterly destroy an entire race of people, going out of his way to order that children and even suckling infants be killed. It's passages like this that make me wonder just why it is that we're supposed to be afraid of Satan. If this is really God then he's a lot like Hitler.
Often, when discussing N.T. faith, people who claim to do gods will are found to be interpreting it and acting on their own. Why is this standard not also applied to the early Israelites. Perhaps they thought that killing the enemy was Gods will. Perhaps it was just them acting on their own.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by berberry, posted 12-18-2004 12:36 PM | | berberry has replied |
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berberry
Inactive Member
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Message 29 of 181 (170281)
12-20-2004 8:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
12-20-2004 7:37 PM
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Might be, Phatboy, and in fact this is not the first time I've encountered your interpretation. But some other Christians insist that the bible is inerrant, and if that's the case then it would seem to me that indeed God is no better than Hitler. Thus the question depends on your position regarding biblical innerancy. Remember, the passage I cited states explicitly that God ordered the slaughter of the Amalekites. I hope you don't take offense at my comparison of God to Hitler. If there is a God I certainly hope the comparison wouldn't hold, but clearly it does hold if the bible is inerrant.
Keep America Safe AND Free!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-20-2004 7:37 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by dpardo, posted 12-21-2004 12:46 PM | | berberry has replied | | | Message 166 by Phat, posted 12-25-2004 10:16 AM | | berberry has replied |
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
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Ifen
ok, how do you answer it? The question concerns the availability of god to intervene to prevent attrocities.That the common idea that a god loves us all and yet allows for these to occur is answered by the taking the obvious to its limit which is to say that the reason it does not make sense is because the whole thing is the result of humans capable of these horrors and god simply not existing. A child dies in crossfire on the gaza strip.100,000 residents of Hiroshima are vaporized or die horribly alone and depressed by the carnage,their flesh sloughing from their body.These and all others are the result of human activities because there is no god to prevent such things from occuring.No moral compass exists except through the choice of the individual. Thus any person regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof is capable of choosing any path they are willing to take and cannot be stopped from doing so except through due vigilence by those potentially at risk.It matters not if you are christian or muslim buddhist or atheist all human actions are a result of choosing to follow a path that is open if one so decides.
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