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Author Topic:   Are Catholics and Protestants that different?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 157 (370044)
12-15-2006 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-15-2006 1:05 PM


Do you believe that Mary was the Mother of Jesus?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-15-2006 1:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-15-2006 9:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 9:09 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 157 (370056)
12-15-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-15-2006 9:08 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
When I used the term, Mariology, I think that the author of the article which I read was referring to folk who venerated Mary beyond mere honor...essentially elevating her to a 4th person of the Trinity.
Which would be interesting if it were true. But as usual that is NOT what Roman Catholics do. They do not raise Mary any higher than many Protestant sects. I assume you agree with the Bible that Mary is different than all other women.
Luke:1:28
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Furthermore, the Roman Catholics do not worship Mary, "elevating her to a 4th person of the Trinity". The snake oil salesmen who make such claims are simply lying and counting on their audience not checking the facts.
You need to look before you believe the claims, the testimony of folk, particularly Evangelical, Pentacostal and Fundamentalist apologists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 157 (370066)
12-15-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
12-15-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
Tell the Bible Buz. I quoted Luke for you, let me post it again.
Luke 1:28
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
It is the Angel that GOD sent that said she was "Highly Favored" and "Blessed art thou among women".
The Roman Catholics say and believe nothing that God's Angel did not say.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 9:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 10:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 157 (370073)
12-15-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
12-15-2006 10:11 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
Well, yes they do. I would not go so far to say that Catholics esteem her as being, as you said, a fourth part of the trinity, but they certainly venerate her with almost deification.
Sorry but simply not true. Mary's status is also recognized by almost every major Protestant Sect.
I don't think the claim of many apologists is unfounded here. When people say the Hail Mary, they are trying to speak to Mary, a mortal woman.
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Read what you write. They are NOT praying to Mary but only asking Mary to intercede, and it is an almost verbatim quote from Luke, a quote of the Annunciation.
To add, the most esteemed mortal was John the Baptist. Why not pray to John by the same premise?
"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." -Matthew 11:11
Guess what? John the Baptist is a Saint and many Protestants as well as Catholics recognize that. Want a list of Protestant Churches that are named St. John's?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 10:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 10:48 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 157 (370075)
12-15-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
12-15-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
"Highly favored says nothing about her physiological, mental or spiritual properties being anything other than normal so far as humanity goes. Hannah, Sarah, Esther and a host of other good and godly women were surely "highly favored" by God, as the apostle John was to Jesus and Enoch, son of Seth was to God way back in Genesis to the point that God raised him up, absolving him from death.
You asserted that before.
I posted what the Bible says:
Luke 1:28
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Straight from the Angel's mouth Buz.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 10:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 157 (370089)
12-15-2006 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-15-2006 10:48 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
Actually, I think you are confusing John the Baptist with John the Disciple. Those are two different people. But aside from that, what understanding am I supposed to come to? What exactly are you getting at?
Not at all. There are many St. Johns. John the Baptist happens to be one. One thing about all Saints is that it is acceptable to ask for their intercession.
But the status of Saint John the Baptist is NOT even related to the OP or the topic. It is just a classic attempt to change the subject.
Almost EVERY Christian Church acknowledges that Mary Mother of Jesus is a Saint.
jar writes:
They are NOT praying to Mary but only asking Mary to intercede
to which NJ replied:
Isn't that a redundancy? They are praying for her prayers.
No, not at all. You can ask GOD or Jesus directly to forgive you. They do not pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness. They ask Mary to speak for them.
Luke 1:28
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 10:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 11:16 PM jar has replied
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 11:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 157 (370097)
12-15-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
12-15-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Mediation Between God And Men
This RC priesthood business is a big time doctrinal problem so far as reconciliation of RC with protestentism goes.
Sorry but once again Buz you are simply wrong. Many Protestant Churches ordain Priests.
Thus we pray to/come to God, the father directly in the name of Jesus, our mediator and him only for anything including forgiveness of sins.
Again, so what. The Roman Catholics agree. They do not ask Mary or the Pope or Bishops or Priests to forgive sins.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 10:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 9:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 157 (370099)
12-15-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
12-15-2006 11:16 PM


Re: Sainthood
Another biggy problem relative to RC/other doctrinal reconciliation. NT scripture indicates all true Christians as saints and in no wise renders sainthood as something determined by some religious hierarchy.
LOL
Once again Buz, you are simply WRONG. Many Protestants recognize Saints. One of the Churches I helped start and actually helped build was St. Elizabeth of Hungary. The school I went to was Saint Paul's.
Both were Protestant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 11:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 11:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 157 (370103)
12-15-2006 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-15-2006 11:25 PM


Re: Sainthood
Buz writes:
The name of the church does not necessarily indicate the doctrinal position of the church concerning sainthood.
Buz, here is a link to an alphabetical list of Protestant Saints.
Buz so far this has been classic, just like all your threads. I and others provide specific evidence to support our position and refute your bald unsupported assertions.
Is this going to be just another exercise in futility?
The Facts are that the Roman Catholics do not pray to Mary, ask Mary to forgive Sins.
Any claim that they do is simply incorrect.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2006 11:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 6:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 157 (370110)
12-15-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
12-15-2006 11:44 PM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
Sorry Nj but almost everything in your message is just simply OFF Topic. You should know that.
The OP claims that one difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics is Mariology, the belief that Mary is the Mother of Jesus. I have shown that that is NOT simply a difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics. Many Protestant Churches as well as the Orthodox Church also recognize Mary's place.
I have shown that the Roman Catholics do NOT ask Mary to forgive sins.
I have shown that Mary's stature is based on the Bible, Luke 1:28.
I have shown that Protestants also recognize Saints and provided links to lists of them.
Anyone that recognizes Mary as the Mother of Jesus is a Marist, Protestant or Roman Catholic.
Can we agree that that one has been totally refuted and look at the other allegations?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 11:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-16-2006 12:22 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 157 (370124)
12-16-2006 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
12-16-2006 12:22 AM


Re: Mary Mary Quite Contrarian
The topic is about the differences of Catholicism and Protestantism. That is so broad that it would be difficult to be OT.
Look at the OP. It lists specific items. Let's deal with those items before wandering off unless you plan on the typical Gish Gallop routine.
I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Fine! That covers that item. There is no difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrine then.
I disagree that asking Mary for intercession is idolatry, but I think it can lead to it. I think there might be unhealthy obsession with Mary and her virgin birth. I mean, I know some Catholics who think that Mary was a virgin all of her life. That seems absurd because we know from scripture that Jesus had many brothers and sisters, most notably, James.
Totally off topic and irrelevant. What individuals do has nothing to do with doctrine. I know some Protestants that think Mary was a virgin as well. The problem is that most Christians, Protestant or Roman Catholic know nothing about Christianity.
Well, I'm sure there are quite a few. I don't know if I've ever met any. But I did quote the Pope, the "Vicar of Christ," crediting Mary with saving his life.
ROTFLMAO
You do know how folks become canonized don't you? That certainly was not an example of "Praying to Mary".
I don't. You are either righteous through Jesus or you aren't. There are innumerable saints according to Revelation. The term, "Saint," is routinely misapplied. Its synthesized considerably through the years.
Sorry but what YOU believe is irrelevant. The FACT is that both Protestants and Roman Catholics (as well as other Christians) recognize Saints. I provided a link to a list of Protestant Saints, so that too is refuted. Both Protestants and Roman Catholics recognize Saints.
Refering to Marist and Mariology, NJ says:
I can't really say, because I don't know what that term even means.
I don't doubt that. The source that Phat used probably didn't have a clue either. Mariology and Marist is recognizing Mary as the Mother of Jesus and as often heard in hymns, Mother of God.
That is all it means, yet whichever apologist Phat was listening to used that as some difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics.
Which item would you like for us to address next?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-16-2006 12:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 10:15 PM jar has replied
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 12-16-2006 10:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 157 (370132)
12-16-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
12-16-2006 12:48 AM


Isaiah 7 is too far off topic.
Isaiah 7 is too far off topic for this thread but it is something that we have discussed here at EvC many times. I can see NO way that Isaiah 7 refers to Jesus unless you cherry pick specific lines and ignore the rest of the chapter.
If you want to have yet another discussion of Isaiah 7 propose a new topic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-16-2006 12:48 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 157 (370251)
12-16-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
12-16-2006 6:52 PM


Re: Sainthood
Buz, still total nonsense and as usual, totally off topic. I posted a list of Saints, Protestant Saints and your response is the list is incomplete? How utterly silly.
The point Buz is twofold. First you are simply going off topic with total nonsense stuff in an attempt to avoid dealing with the errors in the OP. Second, if you recognize saints then again it is NOT a difference between DOCTRINE of Protestant or Roman Catholic.
Protestants recognize Saints.
Roman Catholics recognize Saints.
Even your sect seems to recognize Saints.
AND None of it has anything to do with the Topic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 6:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 12-16-2006 8:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 157 (370272)
12-16-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
12-16-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Back on topic
what does "religious pluralism" mean?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 12-16-2006 8:50 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 157 (370277)
12-16-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
12-16-2006 9:14 PM


Re: Mediation Between God And Men
Buz writes:
I didn't say they ask for forgiveness of sins from priests. The problem is that they confess their sins to the priesthood when in fact Biblically Jesus is our high priest and according to the NT the priesthood was consumated at the cross. Biblically speaking the priesthood has no purpose whether protestant RC as per the NT.
Yet another attempt to change the topic and STILL not a difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine.
Sorry Buz but the Rite of Confession is common to both Protestants and Roman Catholics.
Would you like to try something On Topic for a change?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 9:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2006 10:29 PM jar has replied

  
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