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Author | Topic: Are Catholics and Protestants that different? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: I assume you agree with the Bible that Mary is different than all other women. This is my first communication with you since your return. Welcome back. This is just one of my problems with RC, that the RC doctrine does in fact consider Mary physiologically, spiritually and mentally different than other women when in fact she was a normal virgin who was abnormally impregnated by a spirit, being the Holy Spirit of God. This is not the first time this happened as per the Biblical record. In the OT we read of heavenly beings impregnating women, implicating some giants being the offspring. Nothing in scripture indicates any physiological, spiritual or mental transformation or alteration with the blessed virgin subsequent to the birth of Jesus. On the cross Jesus purposefully addressed her as "woman" in order to make that point, indicating to her and to the world that she was merely a human vessel which God used to bring about the birth of a human messianic one as prophesied by the prophets. At age 12 he asked what he had to do with her since he was to be about God's business. Jesus was the only one of the two which was truly different physiologically, mentally and spiritually than other humans so far as humanity goes. That she was "blessed" says nothing about her being "different" than other women. Elizabeth, Hanna, Sarah and other were also blessed women. "Hail" was simply a salutation or greeting. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
"Highly favored says nothing about her physiological, mental or spiritual properties being anything other than normal so far as humanity goes. Hannah, Sarah, Esther and a host of other good and godly women were surely "highly favored" by God, as the apostle John was to Jesus and Enoch, son of Seth was to God way back in Genesis to the point that God raised him up, absolving him from death.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The Catholic Douay Bible as do other Bibles state that there is one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.
"For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5 (ASV) In the OT animal sacrifices needed to be offered by the high priest and mediation for sins. At the death of Christ, the heavy tough veil of the Holy of Holies in the Temple was ripped open from top to bottom by God, indicating that the priesthood was rendered obsolete. Thus one mediator, Jesus himself replaced the whole temple worship and priesthood. Thus we pray to/come to God, the father directly in the name of Jesus, our mediator and him only for anything including forgiveness of sins. This RC priesthood business is a big time doctrinal problem so far as reconciliation of RC with protestentism goes. The same goes with the pope who is called "holy father" when in fact as per NT scripture Jesus himself said, "....call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9 This, of course was in reference to the spiritual. RC popes and priests are usurping veneration attributal only to God spiritually. This is irreconcileable with folks who take Jesus for his words. I refuse to ever address any priest as "father." It's not that I mean to be disrespectful, but that I fear the consequences of being disobedient to the instruction of Jesus in this regard and dishonoring my savior just to please men. If in my business or elsewhere I become involved with a priest I am careful to be as amiable as possible but never call the person father. I use other terms like "sir" et al. If the occasion seems appropriate I may even kindly explain to the person why I cannot address him as father for his own benefit and enlightment. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Omni writes: So Mary may well have gone on to become a sinner and may be in Hell now? The scripture appears to indicate that Mary always had a good relationship with Jesus in spite of what may have normally been disrespectful statements made to her by him. The angel, before the birth explained fully to her who he was to be and after he first rebuked her mildly at age 12 it says she "pondered" these things in her heart, implying that she took them as constructive admonishments from this one who she knew to be the son of God and messiah. Never was there any indication that she was anything but reverentual toward him. There was never anything she said to indicate she was not a normal woman humanly speaking. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: Almost EVERY Christian Church acknowledges that Mary Mother of Jesus is a Saint. Another biggy problem relative to RC/other doctrinal reconciliation. NT scripture indicates all true Christians as saints and in no wise renders sainthood as something determined by some religious hierarchy. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Omni writes: So why is there a thing called Prostestant doctrine? Your point is well taken, Omni. A better word would have been "Biblical," though the majority of protestant folks would ascribe to my statement doctrinely whereas most RCs would likely not. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The name of the church does not necessarily indicate the doctrinal position of the church concerning sainthood. The large majority of protestant churches consider Christians as saints as per literal renderning of scripture regarding sainthood.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
1. I'm quite sure that God in his providence and foreknowledge would have chosen a woman whom he foresaw as a stable and fit person for the ministry she was to accomplish. After all, his prophets of old also foresaw this event.
2. There are saintly folks today who are soundly stable in their faith; those in the churches on whom you can totally trust to remain faithful and I'm not talking about the deceptive wolves in sheep's clothing we see in the limelight lecturing loudly to the laity while living licentuous lives. God chose a devout woman. My mother was also a devout woman. She was a multiple schlerosis patient for over half of her 84 years of life praying for her six children and glorifying God all the way. All six of us have lived productive and blessed lives, following the Christian way as she and my Dad prayed. Unlike many MS victims, her mind was sharp until the day she died. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: Buz, here is a link to an alphabetical list of Protestant Saints. The problem with this list is that it's incomplete, listing only a few of the millions to billions, both dead and alive. Consider the following Biblical texts, implicative of what/who the saints are:
Bible texts writes: Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them. Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words. Psa 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him. Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Act 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all (quarters),he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Act 9:41 And he gave her [his] hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against (them). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to (the will of) God. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which (I have) for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called (to be) saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1Cr 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Jar writes: The Facts are that the Roman Catholics do not pray to Mary, ask Mary to forgive Sins. Any claim that they do is simply incorrect. Please document where I said prayers to Mary ask for sins. Prayers for intercession and favors can be documented all over the www: For example, this list of many:
Mary Prayer Link writes:
De Verschijningen van de Heilige Maagd Maria | MaryPages
Prayers to MaryPrayers to Mary; Marian Prayers and Devotions. ... O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. A Prayer to Mary for Our Nuns Oh Mary - Queen, Spouse, ... Jar writes: Buz so far this has been classic, just like all your threads. I and others provide specific evidence to support our position and refute your bald unsupported assertions. Jar, please keep the personal inuendoes to yourself. This is not my thread and what you are alleging about my posting conduct is blatantly false. That I have not been at the computer at the time of your demands does not necessarily mean you will not get a response when I can get to it. If you have a problem with my posting conduct, please take it to the proper forum and thread BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: Again, so what. The Roman Catholics agree. They do not ask Mary or the Pope or Bishops or Priests to forgive sins. I didn't say they ask for forgiveness of sins from priests. The problem is that they confess their sins to the priesthood when in fact Biblically Jesus is our high priest and according to the NT the priesthood was consumated at the cross. Biblically speaking the priesthood has no purpose whether protestant RC as per the NT. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Omni writes: Because she wasn't a man who chose God but rather the mother of God chosen by God? This missunderstanding is the problem when folks fail to distinguish between God, Jehovah and his son/world messiah Jesus. This, imo, is just another problem with RC doctrine as well as in the thinking of many non RC Christians, so far as scriptural doctrine goes. God, the father never left Heaven and never died on a cross. That was the role of the son of God, Jesus. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: Fine! That covers that item. There is no difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrine then. Yah Jar. For the sake of moving on let's sweep the prayers to Mary under the proverbial rug along with the RC NT priesthood where we left the hierarchial exclusive list of recognized saints. RCs and you for sure may believe what suits you, but as per topic, these remain some of the (abe: irreconcilable) problems so far as reconciliation of RC doctrine with the fundamentals of scripture. Biblical fundamentalist Christians like myself can work and live along side RC folks in peace and compatibility but when it comes to interpretation of doctrine, there's quite a significant ideological gap. This was evident during the Dark Age centuries when the bishops and popes of Vatican City had power to enforce their doctrines upon the world enforceable by death at the firey stake. Edited by Buzsaw, : change wording BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: Yet another attempt to change the topic and STILL not a difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine. If you think the poignant points NJ and I are making are so off topic, why the heck do you keep responding to them, some of which you initiated, such as pertaining to the the sainthood/Mary matter? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar writes: what does "religious pluralism" mean? That religiously speaking, truth is relative and that there is a pluralism of religious truth. The "all roads lead to Heaven" folks like it. It's very Jarheaded BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I appreciate your kind comments regarding my mother. It sounds like I can say the same for your good mom.
Omni writes: It still sounds odd to hear a man say that there was nothing special about Mary beyond any other God-fearing woman, as though she might have just been the millionth customer in the door that day and won the Big Prize. Never have I said that there was nothing special about the virgin mother. I said that she was not different than other women in nature of her physical and mental properties and that includes her own birth. Jar ask someone if the they would agree that Mary was different than other women and I made a response.
omni writes: We generally see large roles in spiritual stories played by people who worked to get closer to God--you make it sound as though He took her where He found her; perhaps she strove harder to get close to God than any other woman. I have to wonder why you would want to rule that possibility out. No doubt she was closer to God than many women, but likely no closer than women like Hannah, Esther, Sarah and even Mary Magdaline who anointed Jesus with the expensive ointment that Judas complained about. Mary, the mother of Jesus was likely very reveered by him as a good mother, but he nevertheless made it a point to let the record show that so far as her mother status, it was he, the child that was different than other children, in that her mother role ended with his maturity and the beginning of his ministry.
Omni writes: Even granting that Jesus was the Son of God and not God, one would think there must be something about the woman that God actually picks for that role that made her stand out. So I find myself wondering why a Christian would insist so strongly that there was absolutely nothing special about Mary. How would you know? Where ever did you get that my position is that there was absolutely nothing special about Mary, Omni?
Omni writes: It also sounds like there is as much difference in belief between various Protestant congregations and individuals as there is between Catholics and Protestants, regarding both Mary and Christ. You're reading stuff into my statements that is just not there. This is not like you. I'm surprised. Did you and Jar get into some bad coolaid while you were out? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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