Are Catholics and Protestants that different?

I think that the debate between Catholics and Protestants is a bit silly, but there are some fundamental reasons that a rift exists. I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I believe in the authority of the Word of God. Everything else is just details. I don't like a lot of fluff or guff. Seeing that there are multiple denominations within Christianity, I have seen what it does to the "Body" of Christendom.Are they irreconcilable or can we make some conciliation? I guess that's all dependent upon the persons engaged in argument. I would like to say that such a focus on the non-essentials is just that-- non-essential. But perhaps our differences go far beyond mere appearances. Perhaps there are some serious character flaws in both.Though I don't like to consider myself as a Protestant because it implies division, the facts concerning my beliefs make it so whether I like the terminology or not. I have some serious objections to Catholicism as a whole, but that doesn't mean that some constructive dialogue won't comes about. Though I aspire to tread lightly, I can't promise that the debate won't eventually get heated.I just wrote a long discourse but decided to delete it. My objections are a lengthy laundry list of complaints, but as it turns out, there are so many that I can't seem to get into a rhythm. My thoughts are jumbled and it isn't flowing well. Instead, I think I will wait to respond to others posts. Hopefully, all my objections will be addressed and I can tackle them one at a time.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

I guess I'd have to ask, which one? Was Jesus' mother named Mary? Yes. (Well, Miriam, which translates to Mary).

Well, yes they do. I would not go so far to say that Catholics esteem her as being, as you said, a fourth part of the trinity, but they certainly venerate her with almost deification. She was blessed beyond comparison, but I think some forget that she was just the vessel through which glory and honor passes, not the glory itself. I agree, but like I said, there is a almost a sense of deification. Even Pope John Paul, after an assassination attempt on his life, credits Mary with saving his life.“It was the hand of man who shot the gun, but the bullet was guided by the Virgin Mary.” I don't think the claim of many apologists is unfounded here. When people say the Hail Mary, they are trying to speak to Mary, a mortal woman.Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.To add, the most esteemed mortal was John the Baptist. Why not pray to John by the same premise?"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." -Matthew 11:11

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

What "status" are you referring to? Isn't that a redundancy? They are praying for her prayers."I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." -Matthew 11:11 Actually, I think you are confusing John the Baptist with John the Disciple. Those are two different people. But aside from that, what understanding am I supposed to come to? What exactly are you getting at?

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

"Should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" -Isaiah 8:19To summarize, what purpose does it serve to consult the dead, righteous in life or not, when you can you ask God? No it isn't. Jesus, the son of Mary, stated that John the Baptist was the greatest man. Why, then, such veneration for Mary? Here's what we know from Scripture: That Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man can come to the Father but by Him-- not even John or Mary. By placing John and Mary in an iconoclastic status, we might end up capitulating to demagogues. It doesn't matter. The Scriptures are clear on that. Do not boast about man, period. Whether she is acknowledged as a saint or not really doesn't mean a thing. She was chosen by God to carry God. That's a wonderful thing to be bestowed and she was certainly blessed for it. But it ends there. There is no scripture that says we should consult the dead, indeed, it might be impossible according to the story of Lazarus which says that "there is a gulf affixed that no man can cross." Since Lazaruses' tormentor was dead, that would mean that we can't consult with the dead. Whether that was in relation only to hell or all of the heavenly realm, I can't say for sure. But it seems counterintuitive to me. You can ask anyone for prayers. It doesn't matter who they are. God is the only thing that makes the prayer come to fruition anyhow.This is not really a source of contention for me. If Catholics want to pray to Mary, rub beads, repeat the same prayer repetitiously, (even though Jesus said not to), then if that fancies them, so be it. I'm only here to give biblical references.

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And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

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We all agree that Mary was blessed. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

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Jesus, the son of Mary, stated that John the Baptist was the greatest man. Why, then, such veneration for Mary?

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Yes, but God chose John to prepare the way for the Lord and to make straight paths for Him. They both were chosen for their specific role. The point is, its a role; they are the vessel that the glory is revealed, but are not themselves the glory. I don't think we should lose sight of that. I try to never make assumptions about who is in heaven and who is in hell. That is God's place. Certainly, we could make reasonable assumptions, but it remains as that-- an assumption. I would doubt that Mary is in eternal torment. But though it seems implausible, it is possible, technically speaking. As you said, people can fall from grace. I would seriously doubt that Mary fell, but I can't say for sure.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

The topic is about the differences of Catholicism and Protestantism. That is so broad that it would be difficult to be OT. I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus. I disagree that asking Mary for intercession is idolatry, but I think it can lead to it. I think there might be unhealthy obsession with Mary and her virgin birth. I mean, I know some Catholics who think that Mary was a virgin all of her life. That seems absurd because we know from scripture that Jesus had many brothers and sisters, most notably, James.Now, how did they come to such a belief? Well, they venerated Mary far beyond its merits, IMO. Well, I'm sure there are quite a few. I don't know if I've ever met any. But I did quote the Pope, the "Vicar of Christ," crediting Mary with saving his life. No dispute there. I don't. You are either righteous through Jesus or you aren't. There are innumerable saints according to Revelation. The term, "Saint," is routinely misapplied. Its synthesized considerably through the years. I can't really say, because I don't know what that term even means. There was nothing to refute to begin with, but sure, lets move on.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

If God wanted a man to give birth to Himself, I have no doubt that He could make that possible. If Mary wasn't a female, would she have been chosen? Who knows? It doesn't really matter. He chose her. The point is, HE, chose her. Likewise, with John, HE chose him. So, what am I really saying? I'm saying there are divisions that don't need to be so. The focus should be on Jesus, and no other. Because it was Jesus that made it all possible."I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

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Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." -1^st Corinthians 1:10-17What I mean to say is, we are GIVEN certain abilities by God. God is the one who doles out our gifts. Mary's job was to carry the Son of God, certainly, a wonderful gift. She is blessed! Also, John was tasked to come as Elijah to make way for the Lord and to baptise into His Name. We all have our place if we allow God to place us where He wishes."Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

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We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully." -Romans 12:3-8 Well, I would agree that it is certainly extremely doubtful that Mary would wind up in hell. But if you assume that only because it was His Mom, think of it another way. Mary is not really the mother of God in the same context that we share with our mothers."While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

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He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." -Matthew 12:46-50Does that make sense? I agree with you. It didn't take very long for us to bastardize the bueatiful thing He had done for us. Indeed, there have been, there are, and there will be wolves in sheeps clothing. But by their fruits, you will recognize them.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

You can read about it in Isaiah 7 and Matthew 1.

Why does Mary need to be born of a virgin? The story is about Jesus' virgin birth, not Mary.I guess I'm not understanding your objection. Can you explain it in a little more detail?

Another source of contention between Protestants and Catholics is baptism. What is baptism and what does it mean?Many Catholics believe in an old Roman custom that posits that you must be baptised in the name of Jesus or when you die, you will not experience life in the hereafter.This belief of baptismal regeneration is completely misses the point and the purpose of baptism. I believe that it is grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Baptism is the declaration of salvation, not itself the salvation. Babies getting their head sprinkled with water is just babies getting their head sprinkled with water. One must make a personal choice to come to Christ. Children can't do that, and needn't worry about them because they are covered by their innocence.The greatest proof is the penitent criminal on the cross, in Luke."One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

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But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

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Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

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Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:39-43"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith”and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” not by works, so that no one can boast." -Ephesians 2:8-9"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

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They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ”you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God”he and his whole family." -Acts 16:29-34As you can see, faith precedes baptism. Baptism is merely the outward manifestation of an inward conviction from the Spirit.There are a few verses that make allusions to baptism because it uses washing terms, similar to the Mikvah, but it is not matter of salvation, but rather of obedience."He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." -Titus 3:5-7"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

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In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

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"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

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Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." -John 3:1-8

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Ah.... Silly me

Indeed. Are you then saying that infant baptism is merely a formality and has nothing to do with salvation? If it was just a dog-and-pony show I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. But many Catholics, including Anastasia, has relayed to me that infant baptism serves a greater function than mere formalities. They say that because of Original Sin, if an infant dies before the ceremony is conducted, that child will go to purgatory.Purgatory is a whole other matter that I disagree with, but we don't need to get into that just yet. Yes, I'm familiar with confirmation-- another dog-and-pony show as young teenagers are basically made to go in there and pledge an allegiance to God that they might not be ready for. The Scriptures are quite clear that we have to born again. That isn't a denomination. A lot of people seem to think that "Born again" Christians are apart of a denomination. But it isn't at all. We all have to born again. It goes with the old adage, "Born twice, die once. Born once, doe twice." The point being, you can't expect people to be born again by being told to. We all have to make a personal choice from our heart. Jar, I'm familiar with the Bible and I know what it says on the matter. I'm not regurgitating things I heard at church about Catholics or any other group because my church doesn't focus on specific trivial matters like that-- they focus on the Word.To add, I don't think there is anything wrong, per say, with a formal ceremony where you are dedicating a child to God. But if we are under the impression that any man, holy or not, can do what only God can do-- which is save the lost, then I have to say a word against it.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Jar, its on topic 100%. You can't just say, "Catholics and Protestants both believe in baptism. Case closed." There are major differences in what perception baptism is and what it does between Catholics and Protestants. That is sufficient enough to keep it more than applicable to the topic. Identifiable feature? How did I make allusions to that? I've never had a "confirmation." Here's the thing, baptism is that confirmation. Baptism was always meant to be the declaration of salvation-- not the salvation itself. The whole thing about confirmation as a formality is really just an old tradition that is nowhere in the Bible. And again, if Catholics believe that good works can save a persons soul, they are in direct contradiction with the Word. That alone is enough to make a marked difference between Catholics and Protestants. You can't just say that both groups acknowledge baptism when they mean two totally different things.And what we are doing is distinguishing the differences and discussing them. Every one of those has affiliations to the RCC in one way or another, Anglicans and Episcopalians, especially. But what does that have to do with anything? I've never mentioned any subgroup of Protestants. Consequently, you have and continue to bring it up. I am speaking solely about doctrines and whether or not it is biblical or not.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

The controversy extends beyond the Pope. Protestants, by and large, disagree with the handling and the meaning of "The Church." The Church was somehow synthesized to mean, the Roman Catholic Church, when it very clearly means "the body of believers." Secondly, they disagree on the handling of fellowship. The RCC seems to place a lot of stock in organization as if the "Church" was supposed to run more like a business.They also disagree on the terminology of priests. Priests refer to themselves as "Father," where Jesus says do not call any man father in terms of reverence, for we have only one Father who is in heaven.They also disagree that priests and nuns relinquish their marital rites. Protestants believe that celibacy is perfectly acceptable and honorable personal choice, however, keeping people out of an official capacity to serve the church needs while married is deemed an unfair burden. Paul was explicit on the point that relinquishing marriage is perfectly fine, but so is marriage and should not be looked down upon.There is also the doctrine of baptismal regeneration which we have recently been going over.There is also the issue of purgatory, which is not biblically based.There is also the issue of Mary's role, which we've already gone over.There is the issue of emphasis of repeating words as incantations.There is also the issue of "confession," where a priest can absolve you of sin. Protestants believe that confessing one's sins is totally fine, but that you need not confess it to a priest for absolution.There's also the issue of many Protestant churches believing the "Harlot," spoken about in Revelation is referring to the RCC.There are a lot of other sources of contention as well. These are the few off the top of my head. But none of these are irreconcilable, IMO. We basically believe in the most important doctrines and could bridge the minor gaps if only we could come to an agreement.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-