|
Author
|
Topic: ramifications of omnipotence for God
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
Message 44 of 224 (414972)
08-07-2007 12:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
08-07-2007 11:35 AM
|
|
Re: Free-will and disobedience
ICANT writes: ... would you agree that there is then no free will since a choice did not have to be made? Essentially, you're arguing that if Long John Silver was fictional, no real pirates ever exixted. The fictitious/mythical "choice" made by Adam and Eve is symbolic of all choices made by all people. The true/false value of one story has no bearing whatsoever on free will.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2007 11:35 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2007 5:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 50 of 224 (415019)
08-07-2007 6:00 PM
|
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
08-07-2007 5:45 PM
|
|
Re: Free-will and disobedience
ICANT writes: If there was no eve, no fruit, no disobedience, how could it be a symbol that affects me in any way? The symbol doesn't necessarily have to "affect" you. It's a symbol of you. Adam and Eve gaining knowledge and making their own decisions is symbolic of how we all mature and learn to make our own decisions. We would still mature in the same way and learn to manage our own lives in the same way even if there had never been a story about it. So God is still on the hook. He can't be "omnipotent" if He gives us power over our own lives.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2007 5:45 PM | | ICANT has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 53 of 224 (415058)
08-08-2007 12:09 AM
|
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
08-07-2007 11:18 PM
|
|
Re: Free-will and disobedience
ICANT writes: ... He just does not exercise His omnipotent power until the judgment when He has the final word. Ah... the Bart Simpson defense: "I could do that but I don't wanna." A God who "could" do something but doesn't isn't really omnipotent. And temporary free will isn't really free will.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2007 11:18 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 56 of 224 (415134)
08-08-2007 12:12 PM
|
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
08-08-2007 11:18 AM
|
|
Re: Free-will and disobedience
purpledawn writes: I don't understand the concept that allowing us choice means God can't be omnipotent. Are omnipotence and omni potential the same thing? We all knew that kid who didn't "live up to his potential". He could have crushed a lot of ants, but he didn't. He could have been an omni-ant-crusher, but he wasn't. He could have been Lord of the Ants, but he didn't bother. Potential must be used to be potent. I think people often mistake infinite power for omnipotence. Donald Trump might have an infinite amount of money - he could keep spending it as fast as he can and never run out. But as long as I have some money, he doesn't have all of it. As long as I have some power over my own life, God doesn't have "all" of it. Even if He chooses to relinquish some power, he ceases to have "all power".
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 08-08-2007 11:18 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
Re: Omnipotence
purpledawn writes: IMO, they aren't saying that God has all the power, but that he is the most powerful. I feel that the Bible reference deal with being the most powerful, as opposed to, unlimited power. I agree. It's like the bear joke: I don't have to run faster than the bear - I only have to run faster than you. In God's case, He doesn't have to be omnipotent - He only has to be more powerful than us. That's why I don't think "omnipotence" is a very useful concept. If it's watered down to "virtually unlimited", there's still wiggle room for free will - but it isn't really "omni", is it?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 08-08-2007 1:26 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
Re: Omnipotence
purpledawn writes: The next question would be, what power does God actually have? Now days I think they look at power as authority and not might. I think in the Bible, they viewed him as mighty. Yes. God can be Allmighty without being Authoritarian. (The "all" in "Allmighty" being relative again.)
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 08-08-2007 2:18 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 76 of 224 (415847)
08-12-2007 2:35 PM
|
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
08-12-2007 8:42 AM
|
|
Re: Here we go round the Mulberry bush....
Phat writes: My point is that you, or I, or anyone else would only have a right to call this God evil if we ourselves were never given a chance to meet Him. We simply do not yet possess enough information to do otherwise. So He's innocent until proven guilty - but He's skipped bail and failed to show up in court. If He's omnipotent, He could give us the chance to meet Him. The fact that He doesn't is hardly our fault. It's His responsibility to give us any information that would exonerate Him. By not doing that, He just makes Himself look more guilty.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 8:42 AM | | Phat has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 113 of 224 (416222)
08-14-2007 5:14 PM
|
Reply to: Message 111 by pbee
08-14-2007 4:06 PM
|
|
pbee writes: All the while, evil was not in the original design of things. How the heck did it get in there if it wasn't designed in?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 4:06 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 7:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 115 of 224 (416228)
08-14-2007 7:33 PM
|
Reply to: Message 114 by pbee
08-14-2007 7:00 PM
|
|
pbee writes: Evil is the by-product of Adam and Eves deliberate acts of disobedience against God's divine laws. You're missing the point with all your apologetic shuckin' and jivin'. I asked a simple question: How did evil get into the system? If it got in in spite of God's wishes, He isn't omnipotent. If it got in because of God's wishes, He's evil. If He just didn't care, He's a waste of time. Is there another option?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 7:00 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 116 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 7:59 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 117 of 224 (416236)
08-14-2007 8:34 PM
|
Reply to: Message 116 by pbee
08-14-2007 7:59 PM
|
|
pbee writes: Nonsense, control over the situation was left entirely in Adam and Eve's hands. Nonsense. If God relinquished any control - whether willingly or not - He didn't have "all" control any more. He wasn't omnipotent. You can't just redefine the words to fit your theology. You can't blame Adam and Eve for evil and still have God be omnipotent.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 7:59 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 118 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 9:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 119 of 224 (416241)
08-14-2007 9:33 PM
|
Reply to: Message 118 by pbee
08-14-2007 9:08 PM
|
|
pbee writes: So under your own standards, you beleive that an entity such as God could not create beings with the absolute freedom to choose between right and wrong and remain omnipotent? It has nothing to do with "my" standards. You can't have "all" power, give some of it away, and still have "all" of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's simple logic.
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power. I understand the statement, however I don't see how these conditions would somehow void God of His absolute power. Trouble is, you've got a whole raft of different definitions of "omnipotent" there: - almighty
- infinite in power
- having great authority
- having unlimited authority
- absolute power
There's a difference between "might" and authority. Which one are you talking about? A lot of ordinary humans have "great authority". Nothing special about that. What you've been talking about certainly isn't "unlimited authority". If God gives us authority - even temporarily - that is a limit on His authority. And it ain't absolute if He gives it away. If you're going to use such slippery definitions, you can come to any conclusion you like.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 9:08 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 120 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 10:43 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 121 of 224 (416256)
08-14-2007 11:10 PM
|
Reply to: Message 120 by pbee
08-14-2007 10:43 PM
|
|
pbee writes: When it comes down to principles and reason, why would one think that God... creation, and mankind are even relative to physical limitations? What else is there? Everything we know is relative to the limitations that we know. If you start making up stuff beyond what we know, you can make up any damn thing and there's no way to assess it. Anything "could" be true, but that's not a very useful basis to work from.
You are trying to apply physical conditions bound to our own realm to an entity who clearly is not of this realm. I'm applying what we know. You're speculating about what we don't know.
It is completely self indulging and baseless. Yes, speculating about woo-woo "realms" is self-indulgent and baseless.
... these are the results of humans trying to evaluate God. Of course they are. All of our human thoughts about God are humans trying to evaluate God. What's irrelevant in the face of reality is claiming that you have some special insider revelation that makes your notions immune to reality.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 10:43 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 11:24 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 123 of 224 (416268)
08-14-2007 11:36 PM
|
Reply to: Message 122 by pbee
08-14-2007 11:24 PM
|
|
pbee writes: So why not keep the insight and information within the scope of the our sources instead of trying to apply *simple human logic to an entity such as God? Simple human logic is the scope of our resources. Unless you have access to divine logic, you have nothing else from which to glean your insight and information about any entity.
Also, where in the scriptures does it say that God's power is somehow limited or bound to *simple logic? Like it or not, the interpretation of the scriptures is limited to simple logic too.
Otherwise, the onset that God cannot be omnipotent and create life with free will is nothing more than baseless speculation. You have it backwards. The idea that you have some special inside knowledge about the nature of God is nothing more than baseless speculation. In reality, we all have the same resources to work with. In reality, you can't claim to know that God can have His cake and eat it too.
We do however, have scriptural evidence to support that God's powers are limitless and... that he did create free will in human beings. "Scriptural evidence" is not evidence, of course. It's still subject to the same logical constraints as any other notion.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 11:24 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 124 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 11:58 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 125 of 224 (416278)
08-15-2007 12:23 AM
|
Reply to: Message 124 by pbee
08-14-2007 11:58 PM
|
|
pbee writes: But we can however, scrutinize the scriptures and potentially learn a great deal more on God than through independents thought. If that was true, there wouldn't be thousands of different interpretations, all claiming to have learned "a great deal more on God".
Since God is linked solely to the bible... Nope.
... we should have no problems using the available information as a basis for reason. And yet you do have exactly those problems.
For example... we know that God said he cannot lie. No, we don't know that. We know that some guy said that.
... the notion that God would somehow contradict our own logic in giving free will to his creations is completely contradictory to his own word. And, of course, it's perfectly fine for our own logic to contradict what somebody claims is "the word of God". Are you, in fact, admitting that your case is not based on logic?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by pbee, posted 08-14-2007 11:58 PM | | pbee has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 221 of 224 (424320)
09-26-2007 2:47 PM
|
Reply to: Message 220 by iceage
09-26-2007 2:24 PM
|
|
Re: Gods Foreknowledge
iceage writes: And one day you set a open container of fuel in the middle of the room and you hand out lighters to each child. I tried the exact same analogy with pbee in another thread (only I used a bear trap).  Watch him explain that it's still the childrens' fault if they get hurt.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 220 by iceage, posted 09-26-2007 2:24 PM | | iceage has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2