ramifications of omnipotence for God

This is the question of Epicurus:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?And Shelley got in on the deal, too:If he is infinitely good, what reason should we have to fear him? If he is infinitely wise, why should we have doubts concerning our future? If he knows all, why warn him of our needs and fatigue him with our prayers? If he is everywhere, why erect temples to him? If he is just, why fear that he will punish the creatures that he has filled with weaknesses? If grace does everything for them, what reason would he have for recompensing them? If he is all-powerful, how offend him, how resist him? If he is reasonable, how can he be angry at the blind, to whom he has given the liberty of being unreasonable? If he is immovable, by what right do we pretend to make him change his decrees? If he is inconceivable, why occupy ourselves with him? If he has spoken, why is the universe not convinced? If the knowledge of a God is the most necessary, why is it not the most evident and the clearest.Now, I realize that some of those move beyond the strict question of omnipotence, but they do touch upon it:If god is capable of anything, then why do we live in the world in which we do with all of its faults?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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why does allowing bad things to happen make god malevolent?

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Because having the ability to stop evil and yet refusing to do so is also evil.

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is god malevolent for letting us die?

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That's not what was said. It may be good to die. But, if there is evil and god can stop it but is unwilling to do so, then god is malevolent.

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is god malevolent because he allows nature it's course?

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I think you're about to try and claim that humans are above nature, right?You're missing the point: If there is evil and it can be stopped but the one who is capable of stopping it is unwilling to do so, then that person is also evil.There's an old saying: The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

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is god malevolent because he allows men in their capacities to do awful things?

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If he could stop it, yes.If god is capable of stopping evil but is unwilling, then god is malevolent by definition.

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i think you want a sandbox god who absolutely micromanages everything. what's the point of making a functioning universe if you move all the pieces yourself?

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Huh? Why would god need to micromanage everything if he is omnipotent? Are you saying god can't make a universe without evil that also manages itself and allows for free will?That would seem to be an admission that god is not omnipotent.But if god allows evil even though he could stop it, then god is malevolent. Allowing evil when you could stop it is also evil.Hint: There is only a finite amount of effort required to run things on earth. If god is truly of infinite power, then it doesn't matter how granular god must be in handling the affairs of the earth as it would not reduce his abilities one jot. The infinite cares not for the finite.So which is it? Is god willing or unwilling? Capable or incapable?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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omnipotence doesn't require that one not be bounded by logic.

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Nice try, but that's my argument. If the claim is that god can't make a universe without evil that also manages itself and yet still allows for free will, then that means that god is not omnipotent. After all, if god is not bound by logic, then one cannot claim that there is a logical barrier to having a universe without evil and yet still has free will.So can god do it or not? And if he can but chose not to, how is that not malevolence? To be able to stop evil and yet choose not to do so is evil.I've asked you straight out...I expected a direct answer: Is god willing or unwilling? Capable or incapable?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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what i was suggesting is that god is bound by logic and this is simply a boundary of existence

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But that means god is not omnipotent. If there is a boundary, then there is a limitation and the meaning of omnipotent is no limitations.So it would seem that you are saying that god is incapable.

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god chose to make a universe that runs itself. we are responsible for the bad things we do, not him.

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But that doesn't answer the question: Can god stop evil?If so, why doesn't he? If he can but does not do so, then god is malevolent.If not, then why turn to him to try? Thus, god is not omnipotent.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Phat responds to me:

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Lets engage in a hypothesis which asserts that a God could be real. For the sake of argument, we would first have to agree on the characteristics of this God. For now, lets assume foreknowledge and interaction with all creation at some point in our lives.

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Thus, hypothetically, believers and non-believers all will interact with said Deity. Are we ok so far?

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Phat.

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I believe God is capable of ultimate foreknowledge yet chooses to allow for human decision to determine ultimate destiny.

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Congratulations, Phat. You just did away with free will.If you know what I'm going to do before I do it, then I have no ability to change that.

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Thus, God hypothetically leaves some foreknowledge open

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But you just contradicted yourself. If some foreknowledge is "open," then god does not have "ultimate" foreknowledge.Which is it, Phat? Ultimate or not?

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Would you be prepared to argue that such a God is still evil if He judges us based solely on our desire to be independent?

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Phat. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, Phat has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Phat gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?And let's be honest, Phat...you were talking about the Christian god, weren't you?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

pbee responds to me:

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Omnipotent, omniscient... none of these descriptive terms are found in the Bible.

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Oh, let's not be disingenuous. The fact that the term "omnipotent" does not appear in the Bible doesn't mean that the concept isn't present. The Bible directly states that god can do anything. Do you really need me to quote the verses?

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Assuming that God did create a world without the possibilities of evil or sin, through our own consciousness we could not experience absolute freedom.

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Why not? God can do anything, so why can't he do this? We're left with the conclusion that god is malevolent: Capable of stopping evil but unwilling to do so.

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So can god do it or not?

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I would say yes!

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Then why doesn't he? If he can but chooses not to, then god is malevolent.

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However, we have no reason to conclude that any of these conditions apply, therefore, the concept remains baseless.

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Excuse me? Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?Ergo, I know what good and evil is. If god can stop evil but chooses not to, then god is malevolent.

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Assuming you are asking whether he is willing or not to adjust the system to avoid evil remains out of our grasp.

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First, why? Why is it out of our grasp?Second, that isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking if god is capable of preventing evil.

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Capable?... without a doubt!

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Then why doesn't he? Is he unwilling? If so, then he is malevolent.You don't get to have it both ways.And stop dancing around with obfuscation. The questions are very simple and require no more than a yes or a no:Is god capable of stopping evil? You seem to have said yes.Is god willing to stop evil? Yes or no.If yes, then where does evil come from?If no, then god is malevolent.

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However, this we are not operating in truth now are we?

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Then that would mean god is malevolent.Thank you for finally stating something directly.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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I've asked you straight out...I expected a direct answer: Is god willing or unwilling? Capable or incapable?

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[/quote]God is willing to save anyone that will trust in the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.[/quote]That isn't what I asked. I asked if god is willing to prevent evil, no qualifications.The fact that you have imposed qualifications means that no, god is not willing to prevent evil.Ergo, if god is capable of doing so, then he is malevolent.

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God is unwilling that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.

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Than whence cometh evil? If he can stop it and is willing to do it, where does it come from?

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Why has God not stoped evil from happening? Because He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.

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You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, yes?I'm asking very simple, yes-or-no questions. Why do you persist in trying to qualify them?Is god capable of stopping evil? Yes or no.Is god willing to stop evil? Yes or no.No qualifications, no reservations, just yes or no.If god is capable and unwilling, then he is malevolent.If god is capable and willing, then whence cometh evil?God is unwilling that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.God is capable of anything.In the beginning Genesis 1:1 God created the heaven and the earth. It was perfect no sin or evil in it.By man disobeying a direct order sin entered into the world.Can God stop evil from happening? YESWill God stop evil from happening? YESWhy has God not stoped evil from happening? Because He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.But the day is coming when God will say enough is enough, then everyone has to face the judgment.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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i really don't think that being bound by logic (which is simple sanity and existence) is a weakening limitation. it's just stupid.

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Ahem. You said it, I didn't.What will you do if logic contradicts a tightly-held opinion about the nature of god? Will you change your conception or keep your opinion?As I often say: Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way you think?

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i think there must be more options than that.

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But there are only four options: Either he can or he can't, is willing or is not.If he can and is willing, whence cometh evil?If he can and is unwilling, then he necessarily is malevolent.If he can't and is willing, then he isn't omnipotent.If he can't and is unwilling, then why call him god?Which is it? That's why I'm asking such very simple, straightforward, yes-or-no questions. You keep wanting to avoid answering them.

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failing to prevent evil does carry some responsibility for the evil, but god never really claims to not carry responsibility.

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But the claim is that god is good. If god is malevolent, how can he be good?We're back to that pesky logic problem: Are you going to abandon your claim that god is not immune to logic?

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so? who gives a shit if god is omnipotent?

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Um...the person who started this thread? If you find the topic of the thread irrelevant, why are you participating? Simply state that no, god is not omnipotent and leave it at that.

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why ask god for help? because he's more powerful than we are.

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And that's a reason to worship him? Might makes right?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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Please supply Bible version, book, chapter and verses that state that:
"God can do anything".

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Let's not be disingenuous. This is precisely what I was responding to: Do not confuse specific turns of phrase with meaning. There are lots of ways of saying that god can do anything without requiring the specific words, "God can do anything," in that specific sequence.That said:Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Lamentations 3:37: Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
3:38: Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?Ecclesiastes 7:13: Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?Deuteronomy 32:39: See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.And let us not forget more direct statements:Matthew 19:26: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.Mark 10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.Luke 1:37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.Jeremiah 32:17: Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:Jeremiah 32:27: Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?Job 42:1: Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that thou canst do every thing and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
42:2: I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.Hmmm...it appears that god knows everything, too, according to that passage.Genesis 18:13: And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
18:14: Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.Hmmm...looks like god directly says that he can do anything.Oh, and for the claim that the word "omnipotent" doesn't appear in the Bible:Revelation 19:6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Will those be enough?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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When God stops evil from happening the world will come to an end as you and I know it.

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So? What is he waiting for? If he can stop it and he doesn't, then he is malevolent by definition.You say that he is not willing for people to perish, and yet people perish. Ergo, you've just contradicted yourself.Unless you're saying god can't do it.We're back to the very simple questions that never seem to get answered directly:Capable or incapable? Yes or no.Willing or unwilling? Yes or no.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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you keep repeating yourself.

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Because you keep avoiding the direct questions put to you.

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i'm not avoiding answering them, i'm saying they aren't relevant questions.

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Then why are you even bothering to respond? I have made it quite clear that I cannot continue unless you give direct, specific answers to those questions. If you cannot do so for whatever reason, then there is no point in continuing.

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whose claim?

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Are you really that naive?

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and failing to be proactively perfect does not mean being nasty.

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Yes, it does.Don't tell me you're about to engage in black-and-white thinking such that the sole criterion for "nasty" is "kick puppies." That if someone is "nasty," then they must be nasty in every single possible way.

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it would seem that the reason god gives for the people of israel to worship him is that he brought them out of the land of egypt.

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That's not a reason. My parents raised me, but I don't worship them.

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christians worship god because he (at least theoretically) released them from their guilt, not because he's lollipops and sunshine.

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Again, that's not a reason. People get themselves out of guilt all the time without the need of god.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

pbee responds to me:

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However, this does not systematically mean that God does whatever we wants.

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That is not the question. It isn't if he does "whatever" he "wants." It is if he can do anything. There are lots of things that I am capable of doing that I don't do.Which leads us back to the question that has yet to be answered directly:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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The point of it is, when it comes to scrutinizing God and religion, it is unsound(yet common) practice for people to present and apply man made terms and conditions in attempts to quantify a problem.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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Simply put, we do not have all the information to draw accurate conclusions on the matter

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Huh? What more do you need? It's a simple question:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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let alone accuse God of wrongdoing or inappropriate behavior.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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This is premature reasoning.

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What "premature"? You haven't even bothered to answer the question? It's quite simple and requires nothing more than a single word. And yet, you go on and on and on trying to dance around it thinking that will stop me from asking it:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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Rushing the conclusion that God is malevolent does not make it any more valid .

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"Rushing"? How does one "rush" a defintion? By definition, one that can stop evil but does not want to is malevolent.So the question put to you is quite simple and requires not but a single word in response:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.That you don't like the fact that your answer necessarily requires a conclusion of malevolency in god does not change the fact that the answer is there for you to declaim.

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The short answer would be yes!

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Congratulations. You've just agreed that god is malevolent.The only way for you to deny that is for you to retract your answer of yes and switch it to no. So which is it?Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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I believe He has chosen to deal with evil.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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While I cannot speak for others, despite my own inherited sin, I have never betrayed God.

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that doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yes or no.

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Once again, I believe it is quite clear that God has dealt with evil.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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We simply do not have access to that information at this time.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Why? Why is it out of our grasp?

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Those repeat questions and statements are residual.

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So answer them and be done with it.Is god capable or incapable? Either/or.
Is god willing or unwilling? Either/or.

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Evil is not a product. It is a by-product or consequence. Evil is the result of disobedience to God or God's divine laws.

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But is god capable of stopping evil? Yes or no.

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We cannot logically rationalize that God is the source or cause of evil.

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Huh? God directly states that he [I][B]IS[/i][/b] the source of evil. Do you really need me to give you the quotations?That said, that isn't the question. It is simply whether or not god is capable and willing to stop evil. If he is capable and willing, then where does evil come from? That isn't a claim that god is causing it. After all, we might conceptualize it as if evil were coming from a fire hydrant. If I have the ability to turn it off and the functioning equipment to do so and very much want to do so, then where is all this water coming from? It isn't coming from ME. It never came from me in the first place. But if I can make it stop and I do, then where did it come from?

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The onset that God does not act according to our own feelings does not qualify him as malevolent.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yes or no.This has nothing to do with "feelings." It has to do with evil. It doesn't really matter how "evil" is defined. You need to abstract this. Is there such a thing as "evil," however it is defined? Is this "evil" present in the world, however "evil" is defined?Then we're back to the question you refuse to answer:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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It is quite obvious that we are dealing with individual feelings in contrast to open qualifications.

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Indeed, and you're the one that keeps wanting to introduce your feelings into it. My guess is that that is why you keep refusing to answer the question: You don't like the answer.I have yet to define what "evil" is because that definition is irrelevant. Are you saying that there is no evil in the world? Everything is as precisely as it should be?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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Rrhain, I just wanted the one that said: "God can do anything".

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Ah, so you were being disingenuous. Did I or did I not predict just such a reaction?

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I knew all those others existed I just thought you had found those exact words somewhere.

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And you were given it. Did you miss it?Job 42:1: Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that thou canst do every thing and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
42:2: I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.And, in fact, god is called "omnipotent":Revelation 19:6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Or are you about to be disingenuous again and claim that because the exact statement isn't the specific words, "God can do anything," then there is no statement in the Bible of such?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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So? What is he waiting for?

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For you to repent.

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Then god is unwilling. Ergo, god is malevolent.Thank you for the direct statement.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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Is God willing to stop evil? YES

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Is God willing to stop evil in Rrhain's timeframe? NO

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Those two statements contradict each other. God cannot be both willing and unwilling. The evil is here right now. Is god willing to stop it? If he puts restrictions on it, then he is unwilling to do so.Thus, since you have agreed that god is capable but unwilling, then the necessary conclusion is that god is malevolent.Thank you for the direct answer.

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That's not a reason. My parents raised me, but I don't worship them.

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So your parents raising you is equal to God delivering Israel out of 400 years of bondage in Egypt. You must have been a very unrully child, with a lot of problems.

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What does scale have to do with anything? Are you saying that there is something different about helping more than one person compared to only one?Big? Sure. Impressive? Yeah. A reason to worship? Please. Those actions take place every day and we don't worship the people who do them.The UN carried out a global smallpox vaccination process that saved literally billions of people after millenia of the scourge. Smallpox doesn't exist anymore except in a lab.Does that make the UN worthy of worship?

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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I did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you may have.

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Then what's with this "original sin"?You don't get to have it both ways.

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I inherited my sin nature from the man in the garden that disobeyed a direct order from God.

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Which means that you have the same problem: Knowledge gained from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.You don't get to have it both ways. If you aren't tainted by it, then you don't have that knowledge. If you are tainted by it, then you do.

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Because of his sin and the sin of the arch angel Lucifer, Son of the Morning we have evil in the world.

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Um, Satan wasn't in the garden. The serpent was not the devil. The serpent was a beast just like any other only more clever. Genesis directly states so. Hint: How is the serpent punished?Besides, Adam and Eve sinned before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Genesis directly states so. Hint: What is the first reaction Adam and Eve have upon having their eyes opened?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.