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Author Topic:   ramifications of omnipotence for God
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 35 of 224 (414909)
08-06-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tudwell
08-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re-Freewill
Man can have free will and God have omnipotence.
I'm saying that by giving man free will, God has decided to limit his power. Even if he wanted to interfere with man's affairs, he couldn't, because the second he does, man doesn't have free will. He's not omnipotent anymore if man has free will.
That limit is only temporary.
Today you and everyone else are free to choose to believe in God or not, in fact you can believe anything you want to believe.
But all good things must come to an end.
One day you will die.
Then God will say you chose to believe what you wanted to and lived the life that pleased you.
Now I exercise my omnipotent power.
Reve 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
He does not give you free will forever, only until you die.
God The Son gets the last word.
Roma 14:11 (KJV) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
2Cor 5:10 (KJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
If there is a God this will happen sometime in the future.
Can you prove there is no omnipotent God?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by tudwell, posted 08-06-2007 2:58 PM tudwell has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 36 of 224 (414917)
08-06-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iceage
08-06-2007 3:29 PM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
Hi iceage, I got a problem here.
iceage writes:
In the myth of of Adam and Eve, was survival the motivation for taking the bite from the fruit?
Myth
Myth - Wikipedia
A myth, in popular use, is something that is widely believed but false.
If the story of Adam and Eve is a myth, something people believe but is false.
Myth = False
My problem if there was an absence of anything.(humans in particular)
How could there be an act or rebellion or disobedience to God?
If Eve did not exist how could she bite the fruit must less have a motive for doing so?
If it never happened how could it have any effect on God's omnipotence?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iceage, posted 08-06-2007 3:29 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by iceage, posted 08-07-2007 1:05 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 39 of 224 (414935)
08-07-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by iceage
08-07-2007 1:05 AM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
Actually I prefer to look at it as
Myth = Symbolic
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symbolic
Main Entry: sym·bol·ic Pronunciation: \sim-b-lik\ Variant(s): also sym·bol·i·cal \-li-kl\ Function: adjective Date: 1610 1 a: using, employing, or exhibiting a symbol b: consisting of or proceeding by means of symbols
2: of, relating to, or constituting a symbol
3: characterized by or terminating in symbols 4: characterized by symbolism
Parable Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
parable
One entry found for parable.
Main Entry: par·a·ble
Pronunciation: 'pa-r&-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolE comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw -- more at DEVIL
: EXAMPLE; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
This is similar to a parable. The actual Eve in the Garden did not really exist
I don't see where symbolic has anything to do with parable or myth.
If Eve did not really exist how could she bite the fruit must less have a motive for doing so?
How could there be an act or rebellion or disobedience to God?
If it never happened how could it have any effect on God's omnipotence?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iceage, posted 08-07-2007 1:05 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iceage, posted 08-07-2007 2:44 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 43 of 224 (414971)
08-07-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by iceage
08-07-2007 2:44 AM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
i don't care to continue this line of off topic diversionary chatter.
Sorry about that we did get a little off the track.
My point is this.
You say the Genesis account of the Garden was a Myth.
Myth being a symbolic,(false story) parable,(false story)naration of an event that did not happen.
Therefore the Garden did not exist.
The tree of good and evil did not exist.
Eve did not exist.
The non existent Eve did not eat the fruit from the non existent tree, in the non existent garden.
Does that about sum up your position on the matter.
If that is your position, would you agree that there is then no free will since a choice did not have to be made?
Then God can have His omnipotence without any ramifications.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by iceage, posted 08-07-2007 2:44 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-07-2007 12:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 224 (415014)
08-07-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
08-07-2007 12:31 PM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
Hi Ringo,
Essentially, you're arguing that if Long John Silver was fictional, no real pirates ever exixted.
I don't know where they exixted too.
I do know what you meant.
No I am arguing that if Long John Silver did not exist then he had no traits or sentences handed down to the real pirates.
If there was no eve, no fruit, no disobedience, how could it be a symbol that affects me in any way?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-07-2007 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 08-07-2007 6:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 51 of 224 (415052)
08-07-2007 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
08-07-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
So God is still on the hook. He can't be "omnipotent" if He gives us power over our own lives.
Sure He can He just does not exercise His omnipotent power until the judgment when He has the final word.
Until then you are allowed to exercise your choice to live and believe as you desire.
Edited by ICANT, : correct spelling

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 08-07-2007 6:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 08-08-2007 12:09 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 55 of 224 (415127)
08-08-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
08-07-2007 11:58 PM


commit them to a curse for that which God himself was fully responsible since he is the only one fully aware of the consequences
Hi sidelined,
I want to wade into this blame game thing a little.
First God gave a commanded to the man. He does not have to know if it is right or wrong it is just to be obeyed.
The serpent begiled the woman into eating the fruit which the man had told her that God said not to touch. God did not give that command to man.
The woman convinced she was doing the right thing ate the fruit.
The woman gives the fruit to the man. He did not have to eat the fruit. He was not begiled or tricked into eating the fruit.
Now you want to tell me that this man that was capable of naming all the animals on the face of the earth was stupid enough that he did not know what was going on.
God had said the day ye eat thereof ye will die.
The man chose to eat the fruit and die with the woman rather than go back to being alone with the animals.
The man made a decision based on the facts known to him.
He willfuly chose to disobey God.
Before you say he did not know right from wrong Let me say:
I was in the military, in the army there are 2 ways of doing something. The Army way or the wrong way. Try to tell the 1st Sgt. you did not know any better.
God has the same rules. God's way or the wrong way.
God is in no way to blame for the curse, the first man brought it upon the human race.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 08-07-2007 11:58 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by sidelined, posted 08-08-2007 10:30 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 64 of 224 (415269)
08-09-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by sidelined
08-08-2007 10:30 PM


Re-Fruit
And surprise of all surprises Adam lived more than eight hundred years after consuming the fruit that he was supposed to have died eating
First the man was supposed to die the same day not eating the fruit.
Second can you prove this man lived 800 years after eating the fruit?
I think I can prove he died the say day.
If Eve was beguiled then this is also a responsibility of God's for not giving her sufficient critical thinking skills.
But sidelined the first woman did not commit a sin. She had not been commanded by God not to eat the fruit by God. She was told by the man not to touch or eat the fruit. All she did was disobey him.
That is possible however the wife never did inform him IIRC. 'Sides as any man knows you always eat what the woman gives you if you know whats good for you.
You were there so you know for a fact she did not come running to the man saying Honey I ate the forbidden fruit and it is the best in the garden, I brought some for you.
As for the eating of the fruit he also could not know it was wrong before eating it.
God gave the first man a commandment with consequences. It was not a suggestion.
Why do you believe he would have to have eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to know that doing something that he was specificaly forbidden to do was something that he should not do.
BEFORE they ate of the fruit they did not know WRONG!!! IS that a greater degree of clarity?
The scripture says they would know good and evil.
It does not say anything about knowing the difference between good and evil, just that they would know both.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by sidelined, posted 08-08-2007 10:30 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by sidelined, posted 08-11-2007 3:11 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 68 of 224 (415725)
08-11-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by sidelined
08-11-2007 3:11 PM


Re: Re-Fruit
Hi sidelined,
ICANT writes:
Second can you prove this man lived 800 years after eating the fruit?
sidelined writes:
"I" cannot. However the Bible states this.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
You quoted Genesis 5:3, 4.
Gene 5:1 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Did you notice God called their name Adam? Mankind
This man(who the translators called Adam) was created in the likeness of God. Not formed from the dust of the ground.
The woman was created in the likeness of God. Not made from a rib from the man.
Gene 1:26 (KJV) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
This man and woman was never placed in a garden, so they never ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gene 1:28 (KJV) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Why were they told to replenish the earth?
The earth must have had people before if they were to replenish it.
Now to the man and woman that was in the garden.
Have at her mate.
Gene 2:4 (KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth that is in Genesis 1:1.
Gene 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Notice Genesis 2:4 says in the day.
The generations of Genesis 2:4 go until Genesis 4:26.
That means everything from Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 took place the same day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth.
Everybody screams that can't happen it took a long time for all those things to happen.
But since there was no night it was just one long day.
Night was made a very very very very long time (as you and I know time) after all these things took place.
Gene 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
This man was formed of the dust of the ground.
God planted a garden and put the man he had formed (not created) in it.
Gene 2:16 (KJV) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Since there was no way of marking time there is no telling how long the period from the forming of the man until God took the rib and made a woman was.
In the meantime God walked and talked with this man. God is Good, so this man knew what good was.
God gave this man a specific command with consequences.
He disobeyed a direct command.
He did not have to know if it was good to obey.
Nor did he have to know if it was bad to disobey.
All he had to do was to obey a direct command.
BTW that is how my children learned what was good and what was bad. If they disobeyed a direct command they were punished. Next time they knew the proper choice to make.
I think we get into trouble when we try to make this man just as we are today. This man was not created in the image and likeness of God. So we do not know what he was like. He may have been a lot more like the angels than we think.
I am not even sure he had freewill as we talk about it today.
I like to think he had freewill, but he may have been programed to do exactly what he did so God could get to the experiment He wanted to do.
That is to make man in His image and give him the choice to chose to believe in Him, worship Him, and serve Him, just because He is God.
Or to not believe in Him. But believe in all kinds of different things and Gods.
Now to the end of the day started in Genesis 1:1.
Gene 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Ever wonder why evening comes first?
It came first because the day the Lord God made the heaven and the earth had to come to a close.
If you look around in Genesis 1:2 you will not find the man that was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:4 and placed in the garden.
God's Word is true the man died the same day he ate the fruit.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by sidelined, posted 08-11-2007 3:11 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by pbee, posted 08-11-2007 11:37 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 224 (415853)
08-12-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by pbee
08-11-2007 11:37 PM


Re: Re-Fruit
Hi pbee,
The Leningrad Codex 'Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia' presents us with significant differences which can be used to help put things into perspective.
I sure messed up on that one I guess, because I was trying to point out that the word translated as Adam and man and mankind were all the same.
In past threads, I have raised issue on the consequences that the KJV translation creates for those scrutinizing the scriptures. While some downplay the severity of the differences. It is quite obvious that under the terms, 'a single word' is all that is needed to make a world of difference. In the short example cited above, it becomes apparent that only a few terms can fork out and derive an entirely different meaning from the original content.
So you are saying I should accept what the The Leningrad Codex 'Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia' says as the truth and not the one containing the differences.
Hendrickson Publishing Group | Books, Bible Reference, and Bibles
The most accurate edition of the Leningrad Codex in print, the Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia presents a thoroughly revised, reset, and redesigned edition of the Hebrew Bible meticulously prepared by renowned masoretic scholar Aron Dotan.
Aron Dotan revised, reset, and redesigned the masoretic text into the most accurate edition of the Leningrad Codex in print.
What was wrong with the masoretic text? That it needed to be revised.
Other than it was: Masoretic Text - Wikipedia
The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries. Though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early second century, it has numerous differences of both little and great significance when compared to (extant 4th century) versions of the Septuagint, originally a Greek translation (around 300 BCE) of the Hebrew Scriptures in popular use in Palestine during the common era and often quoted in the second part of the Christian Bible (known as the New Testament).
These people did not believe Messiah had come so why should I trust them?
The Septuagint predates the masoretic text by some 1,000 years, and was quoted by Jesus and His disciples. I think I will trust this text.
The term replenish was never used in this verse.
According to whom or what?
pbee writes:
This complies with the claim that he was physically created from the ground.
Gene 1:26 writes:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The man created in these verses was not formed from the dust of the ground neither was the woman made from the rib of man.
They were simply created in the image and likeness of God.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by pbee, posted 08-11-2007 11:37 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by pbee, posted 08-12-2007 4:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 79 of 224 (415855)
08-12-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rrhain
08-12-2007 5:49 AM


Re-willing or unwilling
I can not answer for anastasia but I will try to answer your question.
I've asked you straight out...I expected a direct answer: Is god willing or unwilling? Capable or incapable?
God is willing to save anyone that will trust in the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.
God is unwilling that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.
God is capable of anything.
In the beginning Genesis 1:1 God created the heaven and the earth. It was perfect no sin or evil in it.
By man disobeying a direct order sin entered into the world.
Can God stop evil from happening? YES
Will God stop evil from happening? YES
Why has God not stoped evil from happening? Because He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.
But the day is coming when God will say enough is enough, then everyone has to face the judgment.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Rrhain, posted 08-12-2007 5:49 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Rrhain, posted 08-12-2007 10:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 81 of 224 (415897)
08-12-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by pbee
08-12-2007 4:15 PM


Re: Re-Fruit
pbee I understand you like the MT, I don't.
Masoretic Text - Wikipedia
The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries. Though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early second century, it has numerous differences of both little and great significance when compared to (extant 4th century) versions of the Septuagint, originally a Greek translation (around 300 BCE) of the Hebrew Scriptures in popular use in Palestine during the common era and often quoted in the second part of the Christian Bible (known as the New Testament).
The Mt has numerous differences of both little and great significance when compared to (extant 4th century) versions of the Septuagint,
Jesus quoted the Septuagint as did His apostles.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by pbee, posted 08-12-2007 4:15 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by pbee, posted 08-12-2007 9:46 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 224 (415931)
08-12-2007 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Rrhain
08-12-2007 10:48 PM


Re-Verses
The Bible directly states that god can do anything. Do you really need me to quote the verses?
Please supply Bible version, book, chapter and verses that state that:
"God can do anything".

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Rrhain, posted 08-12-2007 10:48 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Rrhain, posted 08-13-2007 12:12 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 90 of 224 (415932)
08-12-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Rrhain
08-12-2007 10:55 PM


Re: Re-willing or unwilling
ICANT writes:
Why has God not stoped evil from happening? Because He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.
Rrhain writes:
You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, yes?
When God stops evil from happening the world will come to an end as you and I know it.
But God is not willing that you will perish so He is waiting for you to repent .
So No I did not contradict myself.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Rrhain, posted 08-12-2007 10:55 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rrhain, posted 08-13-2007 12:17 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 224 (415991)
08-13-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rrhain
08-13-2007 12:12 AM


Re: Re-Verses
Will those be enough?
Rrhain, I just wanted the one that said: "God can do anything".
I knew all those others existed I just thought you had found those exact words somewhere.
I wanted the reference so I could use it.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Rrhain, posted 08-13-2007 12:12 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Rrhain, posted 08-14-2007 5:30 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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