Absolute Morality...again.

All you had to do was type in "Absolute Morality" into wikipedia and the definition pops right up.
On the contrary we have, Moral relativism. The usage of AM can be justified by a belief in god.His characterization of RM was incorrect, its not that there are NO morals, its just that the majority rules.You can live your life according to AM but you can't use it to run a country, thats where RM steps in. Right and wrong are determined by the rest of us and we make laws around them. None of them are absolutely wrong, but that comes down to your personal opinion and how you want to live your life.I see nothing wrong with eating meat, neither does my country, its legal and perfectly fine IMO. Someone else might consider it morally wrong and refrain from doing it and that's fine but neither of us are absolutely right, or wrong. But according to our country, it isn't morally wrong and I'm permitted to so it.Murder on the other hand is consider morally wrong by the majority and we have laws against it. I too find it morally wrong and refrain from doing it but someone else might not have a problem with it. Because they don't have a problem with it doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't justified in thinking it is wrong and making laws against it. I can't say that murder is absolutely immoral, but I can say that it is immoral in this country, and not permitted. The lack of an absolute standard for the immorality of murder doesn't mean that we can't deem it immoral and bitch at, or punish, people for doing it.

The first issue was that crap of "Oh yeah, well define it!" when DL asked for a definition That’s the easy part. An example is not possible because we'll always be able to come up with a situation where the absolute moral is ambiguous (and therefore not absolute). You've prolly heard them all before. The first issue was that crap of "Oh yeah, well define it!" when DL asked for a definition. That’s the easy part. An example is not possible because we'll always be able to come up with a situation where the absolute moral is ambiguous (and therefore not absolute). You've prolly heard them all before. That doesn’t mean that there can’t be one, especially if it is god-given. Evidence doesn't matter. If it exists then it exists. The value is on a personal level, what you think is right/wrong and what you are going to do, morally. Murder absolutely wrong? what about self defense or war? That doesn’t mean that there can’t be one, especially if it is god-given. Evidence doesn't matter. If it exists then it exists. The value is on a personal level, what you think is right/wrong and what you are going to do, morally.

That's good. Yes, we have morals, but we cannot say, for sure, that something is morally wrong or not, we, collectively or personally, just deem them as immoral. I think NJ was saying that without an absolute morality then, in reality, nothing can truly be deemed immoral, just "I think that is immoral".

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For morals to be truly absolute, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority.

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I'd have to say that an absolute morality is possible if it is god given.

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Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called "absolute".

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We cannot call them absolute because we don't know for sure but that doesn't mean that they cannot be absolute, even if it is without our knowing. Its just not applicable to real life.

ok nah, it could still be absolute.If god makes it so that X is absolutely immoral, when is it not?The imperfect communication medium doesn't make it no longer immoral, if you do X then you did it and you were immoral (in god's eyes). It doesn't matter if you don't have a full understanding of what you did or if other people don't think it was immoral.And, I don't really think that we have been given the absolute morality, like I typed, we can always come up with scenarios were the morality becomes ambiguous (and no longer absolute). If an absolute morality exists, then we don't fully understand it so we'll have to rely on our subjective morality.Also, couldn't it be argued that if they were absolute, they have to be in a way that they couldn't be made subjective? i.e. only one version, or defined in a way to eliminate reletivity. Are you skipping lines in the posts again?Read the very last line I typed in Message 8:

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Its just not applicable to real life.

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We can't. We can't. It makes more sense to me Look, if god set up a system for an sbsolute morality and it exists, then it doesn't matter what we know or not, the system is there and it is absolute. Now, down here in the real world, we can't claim any of our moralities to be absolute but that doesn't negate the one that god set up or make it impossible. Yup, my statements are better. They don't make claims that are too strong to make.There's a basis in reality for absolute morality if you are religious, its just not applicable to everyday situations. Also, pink unicorns just might exist,just not in a way that you could ride one.

Either you're contradicting yourself or we are using different meanings for the words we are using.When I say that we cannot say for sure that something is immoral, I mean that we can't know it, for sure(or...absolutely), to be immoral. It is just a label we put on it. We just deem it immoral, but really, we cannot know, for sure.So when you start with this:

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Sure we can say for sure that something is morally wrong or right.

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and end with this:

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Go against a cultures code and one will be deemed immoral.

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You seem to be contradicting yourself, or at least what I mean by these words. If we are just deeming something immoral, then we don't know, and cannot say, for sure that it is immoral. Its our opinion. These are not absolute morals though. They are not "for sure". Otherwise, I agree with you here.

For all practicle purpose I agree there is not. But I believe in God and I think he has an absolute morality set up. Sin is that which seperates you from god and its immoral. I think a working definition has been established (from wiki). An example is not possible because we will always be able to think of a scenario where the morality is ambiguous, and not absolute. The best example possible, IMO is The Golden Rule. Acually, I just jumped in becuase I thought it was stupid that DL was all like "Oh yeah, define it!" Which I thought was a pretty easy thing to do.Whether or not it actually exists is not knowable. It is certainly possible if god exists.An example? Can we even come up with an example of an absolute anyting?

It doesn't matter if we can define it at all.If god set up a perfect, and absolute, definition of murder and decided it is immoral, then it would be absolutely immoral if we can define it as well or not.

What if I demand that you own me?What if I force you to own me?

I wouldn't say he defined them poorly(they'd have to be well defined to be absolute), its just that we don't have the capacity to understand them because we'll always have a situation that is ambiguous. But it doesn't matter because, ultimately, the morality of a situation comes down to the personal level, conscience. Whether or not we deem something immoral and whether or not we do it anyways.Take murder. We can come up with all kinds of What if this and what if that situations where the morality of murder becomes blurred. God could have all the answers and keep the definition absolute but how could he have it laid out for us, especially when we keep comming up with more what if's. I guess the definition could be precise and well defined and simplified enough to cover all the bases, and perhaps it is(in god's eyes), but we just lack the absolute definition.The absolute moral could still be there as "Thou shall not murder", we just don't have a working definition of murder, because in some cases, killing some is not wrong even though it is still killing someone, and in that case it would not be included in 'murder'. Thus the absolute moral still stands and we'd just have to argue over the definition of murder and the what if's would be is this murder, is that murder? Still, the absolute moral of not murdering would stand, it would just become reletive in what should be included in murder. So that we have a choice. So we aren't robots that must be good and must believe in him. For some reason, he wants us to hafta have faith.

I was saying that the terms are defined (by god), just that we cannot comprehend them, or simply aren't given them. The absoluteness would still be there, just not practicle to our everyday situations..... enter your conscience. Let's not derail the thread, ok? Yeah, I guess not.

Us seperating ourselves from him affects us. I agree its not about him. My opinions differs on this but we're getting off topic. Why not?I agree we don't have it in real life, on earth, in actuality or whatever becuase like you say, if we don't have it (can provide an example) then we don't have it (it doesn't exist).But....God could have morality absolutely defined and we just aren't able to exemplify it. That doesn't mean the definitions aren't there, to god. They just aren't there to us.

Yes, this is true. Its not that an absolute morality cannot exist, its just we cannot use one. Which really isn't too different from it not existing, except I believe in God and think that he does have one set up. I'd say it is kinda fruitless. Hmmm, maybe an absolute morality would be perfect. Then it could be something for our morality to strive towards while realizing we we never actually reach it. Well, I can think of them but there's always situations where the morality is ambiguous, so....yeah, maybe I can't think of one. But without digging too deep into them, I sure we can all come up with things that are purely (im)moral. Its only when we try to remove the purity that the absolute-ness fades. Nope. I think it can strengthen your conscience. While believing in God and his absolute morality, when confronted with a day-to-day situation where I do not know what to do, morally, the old WWJD helps. Or I can consider what the morality of the situation would be in God's absolute morality. Its a source of morality outside of my own conscience so I do think it can help in day-to-day situations, sometimes.I think this might be why immorality is attached to atheism, because when confronted alone with a moral situation that is ambiguous, who do they turn to for guidance? (and I realize you don't have to be a theist to ask WWJD)