This is quite off topic but then this thread is old and maybe the admins wont notice!
Phat writes
There is no such thing as an ex-born again Christian. Once you have actually "met" someone you cannot deny that they ever existed unless you actually only imagined that you met them.
Well there are plenty of people who once professed to be born again Christians who now no longer claim that Christianity is a valid religion, and no longer call themselves born again Christians. They now realise that their experience was not valid.
Christians never actually get "knowledge" of God or Christ. They merely undergo a emotive psychological process (conversion or enlightenment) and then ongoing thought re-enforcement process that while they are submitting themselves to it gives them the impression of Christian "knowledge".
If they actually gain knowledge, if they actually meet God or Christ as you claim, why do Christians:
1) Have to submit to ongoing thought re-enforcement techniques: prayer, congregation, repetitive sermons, singing, information control, and fellowshipping with like minded individuals etc. These thought control techniques are similar to those uses by political totalitarianisms. Why is that?
2 )Sometimes reject their faith and their conversion experience, as some of the members on this very forum have?
An individual who has truly met God will know. They will know because they will undeniably experience the encounter. It is a spiritual experience.
No, it's a subjective physchlogical experience. It is nothing mysterious, can be induced by many methods and can take varied forms. It is known to science, can be induced by drugs or other external stimuli (like that Canadian scientists "Holy Spirit in a Helmet" that induces temporal lobe experiences complete with visions of the deity of your choice). It is not unique to Christianity, but evangelicals use the process extensively.
It works like this:
1) Individual is usually emotionally vulnerable
2) Is sold an emotive pie-the-sky message about eternal life and love
3) Receives a period of spiritual indoctrination (of varying length)
4) Is placed in a physically and emotively vulnerable position: usually partially disrobed for full immersion baptism in front of entire congregation
5) Often pressured to perform in a particular manner
6) Sometimes this individual then has an emotional breakdown which manifests in a "religious experience" (which greatly varies between individuals), May experience Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) if appropriate to that faith and asked to repeat multi-syllable words like "hallelujah" and "praise the Lord"
7) The individual is told that these experiences are what the Bible predicted they are put in the context of that particular faith
8) The individual is then required to submit to ongoing indoctrination to re-enforce an otherwise transitory and insubstantial physchlogical experience
If the individual does not have the enlightenment experience on cue, then they are required to re-submit to it and to further ongoing indoctrination until something happens. If nothing happens it is always considered a fault of the individual.
If after having had such an experience one were to honestly question their own sanity and opt out of the belief, they would be judged by their own internal honesty.
Cool; I'm safe then.
Many of you have never actually had such an experience.
You don't know what they or I have experienced. The whole thing is chronically subjective anyway and strongly contextual. An Islamic convertee experiences knowledge of Allah during enlightement.
One thing that I believe and conclude. The Holy Spirit changes you when you meet Him.
Yes you changed. You underwent a psychological transformation/breakdown. Such a change can change world-views and personalities. Unfortunately because you underwent such a change in a religious context, much of what you believe you experienced and now much of what you believe is untrue.
You can now add into your knowledge gathering techniques such flaws such as Confirmation Bias and Post-Hoc reasoning. You also now believe in fictional entities and conspiracy theories.
Fabulous.
God is not a religious concept. He is the article of our faith. He is, perhaps, more abstract for some than for others. His character, however, is not vague and undefinable.
God's character is inconceivably vague and indefinable. The number of religions and number of Gods throughout history attests to that. The number of Christian faiths attests to that. The dispute amongst Christians on this very site attests to that. And it all attests to the fact that this God/Gods are simply made up.
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