Jesus/God the same?

About the name of the God self-described in Scripture:Many things in Scripture are hidden, evidently because, as is written there, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. It is the glory of kings to search out a matter." But some things are fairly clear, such as "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." and "My sheep know My voice." and "Hearken to my voice, to keep and do all that I have commanded." So, we are advised that we will have to "search out a matter" and that we do this by getting into God's presence, where we can hear words that He is speaking. We are also warned that eating from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is fatal. That is apparently symbolic, implying getting our energy from knowledge of good and evil. This is in contrast to the "word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" implying that an "argument" that begins, "God told me that...." is biblically valid, while one that begins, "Now we know that ...." is dangerous. We are also told that "we all prophesy in part..." and that we ought to "let the prophets prophesy, and let the others judge." We are further encouraged that "all can prophesy" and "pursue love, but seek spiritual gifts, especially that you might prophesy."So, the biblically based debate is supposed to consist of prophesies, that are judged by other prophesies. Knowledge of good and evil is to be avoided.With this in mind, I asked what'sHisname what He would like to be called, what name we were praying would be hallowed. He told me (judge away, all you prophets out there) that He preferred Jehovah to Yahweh. I asked why, and He said that Yahweh is close to the pronounciation of the Greek, Jove, and besides, only has two syllables. He said that He preferred three-fold things, generally. He added, by the way, that Iasous or Joshua, or Yeshua were His preferred names for His Son.Well, I went on, now that You have brought up Your Son, perhaps You can give me some understanding of the three in one idea? He said, "I am love, and you do well, given the limitations of your mind, to imagine Us as three Persons who, after commanding you to love one another, your neighbor, your enemies, etc, set before you an example of what we are telling you to do."So that's what I heard Him say, and my contribution to the debate.

Ah, Brian,I'm not sure you want to hear more from a madman, but I liked your comment about your life being 100 times better since you stopped believing that the Bible was true. As I didn't say very well, mine too has vastly improved since I caught on to that fact. A fact which the Bible "admits," in many places.I put "admits" in quotes, because I tend to think that believing in talking books is a bit mad!But then, believing that a God who describes Himself as a person, a loving father, a shepherd, a "mighty counselor, etc, cannot or will not talk to His children, sheep, creation, whatever, now that's truly mad. If He's out there, He can and will talk. He must know how, He must want to, He must have the power to make any of us able to hear, and know His voice. If He cannot or will not talk so we can hear and know that we have been spoken to, I'm not interested. To "believe" in the God self-described in the Bible, and not hear His voice, seems true madness.So, in my effort to maintain my "secularity" I put ole "whatsHisname" to this test. "Until You talk to me so I know (as a professional scientist and scholar) that I am hearing You speak, I will declare it foolish to believe in You." Of course, as a scientist, I attempted to meet the requirements (what we scientists call the materials and methods), that are stated as needed to get the sought after results.And, as you observe, He spoke to me in a way that was utterly persuasive to me that I was hearing someone outside myself talking to me.Now, my life had improved 100 fold, once I got away from the Bible as a guide to living. But, using it as a guide to hearing Jehovah's voice, and getting to hear His voice, I got another 100 fold increase in the quality of life.So, I don't think I am mad. I do appear so to most of the people in this world, but there is good reason to think that almost everyone else is mad. That the default condition of mankind is madness, that only those who hear God's voice can escape into sanity. I certainly was mad, before I heard His voice, if I may judge by the way I bit and tore at those around me, even those I loved, infecting them with misery.But, I have the benefit of being a scientist, and knowing that the true path to truth is to believe, for the sake of testing, ideas that may be important. Then, as tests confirm the ideas, believe them for the sake of living. The strategy, known as dogmatic opinionation, of clinging to an idea until forced by compelling evidence to the contrary, is not very effective. Free will means the freedom to choose death and evil. It's not about persuasion. It's about choice.Maybe that's why you are in these debates.Stephen

Wmscott,Whenever God speaks to me, I ask, "Where did You say that in Scripture?" and get a real boost in faith when the Holy Spirit reminds me of something I had read earlier. Or, more rarely, I get led to a verse that confirms. But, of course, the real test of the spirits is to ask the voice to talk about Yeshua walking on this earth in the flesh. Voices that fade away when I ask that, I doubt.But I hear God saying to avoid doubting based on scriptural contradictions. Love, He reminds me, believes all things. For example, He says both to correct a fool in their folly, and to not correct a fool in their folly. So, which is it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If He says correct, do so knowing that this is encouraged in scripture, and ignore the fact that it is contradicted.So, I still believe that God delights in my loving Him, His Son, and His Spirit in different ways, at different times, viewing all as "my Lord and my God." I still believe that I am to use their example of loving one another as I learn to love my brother. (e.g. "You can mess with me, and I will forgive you. But if you mess with my friend, I will never forgive you." following Yeshua's comments about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.) I don't actually use the term "trinity" very often; it's not in scripture, is it?

Hey, Brian,I haven't learned to do the neat box thing, but anyway, you said,"So why then is it that only certain people hear Him, and normally it is only people who try very hard to convince themselves that He exists"Now, there are two answers to this question, one that satisfies me and one that satisfies you. The answer that satisfies me accepts as given the Orthodox Theology hypothesis, and satisfies me only because it demonstrates that certain data are expected, given the hypothesis is true. This answer is that, being born in sin, that is as slaves of Satan, who wants to keep us slaves, all humans are immediately upon conception blinded and made deaf, so that they cannot hear God telling them how to escape slavery. Unless someone prays (so the OT hypothesis goes), the person cannot hear or see. They normally are given some idea that there might be a God, and that if they pray themselves, they might be made able to hear. The "trying very hard to convince" yourself, of course, strengthens prayers, almost always going along with the self-convincing. Aren't you more likely to go out of your way to speak to and help someone, who is making every effort to get a response from you?Now, on to an answer that might satisfy you.Only by trying hard to convince oneself can one overcome the tendency to self-delusion that filters out God's voice? Ah, well! Not very persuasive, but consistent with your belief that we are all very prone to self-delusion. (Surely you wouldn't suggest that listeners were vulnerable, but that skeptics were not?) But, as a scientist, wouldn't it be profitable for you to delude yourself into hearing God speak, so you could effectively study the weirdness. Then, of course, you would undelude yourself, to get back to reality....?Anyway, onward...."Why bother convincing yourself that He is real, these are ancient myths that you are wasting your life away on."If I convince myself that He is real (for me, a highly ephermeral state!), but in that effort win Him to convince me that He is real, then, if He is real, I'm ahead of the game. I've talked myself into lots of things, and some paid off. I became a scientist so that I could do actual tests of reality, that did not depend on what I believed, or whether I had convinced myself or anything. In fact, I became a hypothetico-deductive scientist, which meant that I had to develop the skill to convince myself of all sorts of nonsense, so that I could more easily deduce predictions from the ideas. I didn't know they were nonsense, of course, until after I had tested their predictions, and found them wanting. But, I convinced myself, sort of, that it was God speaking to me, stepped out on the premise, and won all sorts of prizes."Ok, as a scientist then surely you must explore every possible avenue in an attempt to come to an acceptable conclusion? This said, have you asked a professional to examine your state of mind"Well, every possible avenue is a lot of avenues. And, since the journey is the goal, I'm not really after conclusions, just ideas worth betting my life on. As to professionals, I am afraid that I have yet to meet one that meets my standards as a trustworthy authority. Bad fruit."This reason would be what?" (referring to my suggestion that the whole world is mad, except for those hearing God's voice.)First, we ask, "What is the prior plausibility that dark matter on earth is inhabited by beings that parasitize humans, infecting their minds and inciting them to do evil and be mad?"Then we ask, "If this idea is true, what predictions can we make from it that are otherwise rather implausible?"Then we ask, "Has anyone reported on researching such predictions, and verified them?"And finally, "What alternative explanation/hypothesis do we have for madness and evil, and how has it been confirmed?"We, of course, turn away from the unscientific "Yes, but..." subjective arguments that distract from each step. We are hard-assed scientists, and want to know what the data say, free from skeptical rationalizations and whining objections. You don't agree, replicate. Invite the orginal authors into your lab, or go to theirs. The scientific literature is replete with experiments confirming the OT hypothesis, at all sorts of levels: Bible Code studies, near-death studies on Hell, weighing of souls, studies on prayer. Oh, sure, all have been "discredited" by skeptics. Like the studies on limes and scurvy were discredited, like Semmelweis's study on antisepsis were discredited, like Pauling's studies on vitamin C were discredited. Skeptics! Scum of the earth, in my opinion. And I'm sure the 100,000 sailors who died unnecessarily from scurvy because of the lime research skeptics, the 10,000 mothers and their babies who died unnecessarily from childbirth fever, delivered by unwashed physicians, the millions who have died unnecessarily from cardiovascular disease (not to mention pneumonia, addictions, and a host of other problems), deprived by vitamin C skeptics, all these also despise the vile talk a lot, replicate nothing skeptics who cost them so much.It's a good thing I find it likely that "the devil made them do it" ." Here is a test, the next time you chat to the big fella in the sky, ask him to pop over to Scotland and have a chat with me, I am sure if I come to the forum declaring that God is real that a few people would take a lot of notice."I pray:
Father, remember that your Son, Yeshua, paid a great price so that Brain might be forgiven everything offensive he's ever done. Look on Him as you did when you made Him, with all the hope you had then of glorious and wondrous things from him. Hear his openness to know you, to consider again choosing the life you created Him for. Don't let the devil continue to gloat over his robbery of this life from your glory. Give him hearing ears, and say something he can stand to hear, in a voice he will know is yours. He has some friends he wants to take notice. Give him, and Scotland, a break.So it shall be."I am in these debates to try and show people how ludicrous it is to believe in God and the Bible."A tried and true way to get God's attention!This is good.Stephen{Note from Adminnemooseus: or Just look at this in the edit mode, to see how it's done. You can look at anyones message in the edit mode, although you can only actually edit your own messages - AM}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-30-2003]

Hey, Brian,Last night, the Big Guy woke me up to talk about you. Said that I needed to pass on to you two thoughts:First, the epidemic madness of the human race is manifested in the many self-destructive behaviors that we have actually institutionalized into our culture. Desmond Morris, in his The Human Zoo, observed that humans, as primates, behave as weirdly as caged primates. As madly, I would say. We educate our young people in schools, for example, in spite of abundant evidence that this is a poor method, that almost does more harm than good. We set up a mating system that is almost designed to produce neurosis, making young people at the peak of their organic reproductive potential exercize restraint and wisdom that most more experienced and supposedly wiser adults cannot handle. We force monogamy on a species, clearly adapted to polygamy, asking females who are probably internally designed to select and live with males that have proved their fitness by their ability to attract many females, to live with males apparently unable to evidence such fitness. We create an economic system that breaks with common sense notions of biologic fitness, getting most humans to spend most of their time doing stuff that has no connection to biologic fitness. Denial is epidemic. We befuddle our supposedly sapienistic minds with slang, and baffling art and music. Self-destructive behaviors are epidemic. We surround ourselves with good nutrition, then proceed to eat crap.As a biologist, looking at the human species, I look at each subculture, and look at its biologic fitness, the likelihood that it will be represented in the future. Mennonites, for example, have the most children, that inherit their parents' culture (9-10 per family, 90% of which stay in the culture). The Swiss, as a more k-selected culture, also appear to have a certain staying power. But, both of these are glaringly exceptional to the species as a whole, which, to my naturalistic eye, appears infected with some sort of mad-human disease, causing it to behave in self-destructive ways, fulfilling the agenda of some other agent which seems to have infected them.The other thing He told me to pass on to you is this. In His eyes, as our creator, there is something worse than an eternity in Hell. That is the loss of our freedom to choose between heaven and hell. As He talks to you (and He will, He said), you will have to choose, love or hate, belief or doubt, truth or denial of truth. The pleasures and pains of living, or the pleasures and pains of self-righteousness. Living is a world of humbly thinking, "maybe that's Him speaking. I better look into it." Self-righteousness, a world of arrogantly closing your mind with "I know that that's impossible" or "I know for sure that that was .... whatever."Be careful what you choose, for Scotland's sake. You are there for a purpose, and if you choose unwisely, you won't be the only one, nor even the first, to suffer the consequences. Maybe that's a threat, maybe a warning. There's another choice for you. Personally, I hope you were hungering for and hear in it affirmation that who you are and how you choose, makes a lot of difference in this world, because you were created, not evolved.[This message has been edited by Stephen ben Yeshua, 12-30-2003]

:ae:,Thanks for the tip about boxing in quotes.Now, about your talking with Jehovah, telling us what you heard, and wondering how I respond,Well, since you heard pretty much what I heard, my response is, thank you for talking with God, and telling us what you heard. Put our messages together, and we get, "Religious fundamentalism is the primary door by which humans get mad-human disease from the devil." When I ask God about that, He says, "You guys are getting there. Keep coming back."Of course, religious fundamentalist's infections include a misrepresentation of demonic "natural" history. We'll only get an accurate picture of what we are dealing with, if we get that picture while keeping to the best we know of applied epistemology.

Brian,As it is written,"Beer does more than theology can,
To explain the ways of God to man!"If you ever have a problem with hangovers, that you decide to solve, one of the most useful thing I ever did with my biology education is learn how to get happily drunk without a hangover. So that, indeed, the New Year will be agreeable, all ways around.Stephen

ex libres,Your post 112 is excellent. I would have put just two TV's in the garden, and the forbidden one would have been the small one--the tree of life is so much grander than the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is useless, actually without life. And I would have included the devil in the story, since it is possible that we only have a chance for redemption because our original choice for death was born in a deception, instigated by Satan. Also, the existence of the devil in the Genesis story is one of the main bits of evidence that there is some significant part of the creation story presented there that is missing. When the serpent appears, we are supposed to ask, "Where did HE come from? When was HE created? How did HE get to be evil? When did THAT happen?"Analogizing Jehovah as a TV is interesting. "Be still and know that I am God?"Keep on keeping those commandments!Stephen

Doctrbill,In the discussion with Wmscott, we have: to which you reply, But Wmscott's words do not seem insulting to me. More a warning. Holmes reminds all of those he debates with of a similar truth, how foolish it is to close your mind to reason and counsel. Isn't it affirmed in Scripture, that a free will choice to remain foolish, so common in humans it qualifies as original sin, trumps understanding?So, we are concerned at your failure to appreciate this argument, that critics were at first so embarassed by the fit between prophesy and history that they concluded it had to be a fraud. But when it was proved not to be a fraud, they overcame their embarassment, and began to pick apart the fit. Now, that's, what's :ae: call it? Disingenuous? I've been reading your posts, and was a bit surprized at this response. I expected something better.Stephen[This message has been edited by Stephen ben Yeshua, 01-20-2004]

Doctrbill,You ask, The rules written in scripture for making this decision are fairly clear.First, no private interpretation. We live by what proceeds out of the mouth of God. If you are not willing to say, "I asked God, and He told me from His mouth that ...." you don't get to play.Second, you only hear in part, through a glass darkly. You have to assume that someone else has part of the picture, and nobody does anything about what you see as wisdom until this part is included.Third, what you say needs to be judged ("Let the others judge.") by others hearing words from the mouth of God.Fourth, you need to be willing to ask the voice speaking to you to speak about Yeshua, about whether or not He walked on the earth in the flesh, etc. Test the spirits.Fifth, anyone can participate in this prophetic forum.Sixth, the witness of scripture to whatever is heard in the Spirit can and should be sought, before action.Seventh, the wisdom found ought to produce good fruit, love, joy, peace, etc."Anyone who says they know God, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."Good living!Stephen

Doctrebill,Your summaries missed the main point. Anyone can play, but they have to play by the rules, the first one of which is, "Get an answer to the question, 'What did the voice of God say to you?'" Presenting wisdom otherwise is like playing basketball without a ball.Then all the other stuff makes sense.Stephen