Jesus/God the same?

Quote:"Does the Bible or does Christianity enumerate any "Creations" (other than the standard, New Testament miracles, attributed directly to God's Son, Jesus, or is "Creation" specifically an act reserved for YHVH? Please give chapter and verse for any evidences of Old Testament creations attributed to Jesus." AbshalomThe answer quite simply is yes. However, you must look back from the New Testament towards the Old Testament to understand Jesus as the creator.
John 1:1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Christ on the cross said "I am THE WORD, the light and the way.This is just one example of Jesus identifying himself with God. There are more. But, what you need to realize first is that the Old Testament works on several levels such as historical, metaphorical, legalisms, devotions, etc. However, when you view the Old Testament as a whole, you can easily see an underlying theme. That is: The redemption of mankind. From the fall in Genesis to Christ's birth we see types and shadows of this theme over and over. For example, when Abraham was asked of God to sacrifice his only son, we see a parallel between this event and the events on the cross, or the flood of Noah as a cleansing of the old wicked earth to a reborn earth, an example of baptism and the baptism by blood for all mankinds sins. In a nut shell, God the father created us perfect. We strayed from his will which added sin to our nature which makes us imperfect. Since God can only tolerate that which is purely good (holy) then how can we as humankind ever hope to reunite with our creator. We can't. Therefore, a pure sinless sacrifice in our place would be the only sufficient way to atone for the sins of mankind. Since all men are born in sin, a mere human would be insufficient. Therefore, Christ was born of a virgin so as not to inherit the sins of mankind. Is Jesus God? He would have to be because God accepts only what is good and God is the ONLY thing that is. Which reminds me of another passage from the NT where a woman calls Jesus good and Jesus replies, "Why do you call me good? Have you not read only the father is good?" At first glance it may seem Jesus is denying his diety, however, he is really affirming it by saying in a sense "So, you recognize who I am." Now many people might say God went through a lot of trouble to bring us back to him. Why doesn't he just come down and straighten all of us out? He was a regular in the Garden of Eden and and it didn't work out that way. The short answer: FREE WILL! If we are to have free will we must have choices. We can choose to follow God or choose not to. For him to force us into a mold would violate our free will. This is also the reason for heaven and hell. What kind of a Loving God would he be if he forced those who chose not to follow him into heaven. It might be for their better good but it does not allow for free will. Now Christ as God: If you think about it in these terms perhaps you will see the point I am trying to make. Imagine you have created a little world of lets call them Yomans. You created an environment first for the Yomans, just as parents would get a nursery ready for an expected child, you stock it with supplies and intellectually engaging activities. Then you create the Yomans to be very much like you with the exception of physicality since you have none. You ask yourself, How shall they live? I can make them do whatever I want or I can give them a will to choose what they want. Which choice is more loving? Okay, all is good so far but, oh no, what choices are there? I know you put a big screen TV in the garden and several other 12 inch tvs and you give them one rule: not to watch the big screen TV. Then one day, the Superbowl comes on and there is this real temptation to watch it on the big screen so you make a choice and break the one and only rule. As a result of this transgression you learn that watching the game on the big screen was very pleasurable so now the Yomans begin to judge and be critical about what they have or don't have and it snowballs from there throughout history and your creation is getting further and further away from you. You know that when they die they can not be in your pure presence but, you so loved them that you wanted to find a way to bring them back to you if they will come. How do you do that? As God the father visiting your Yomans? It didn't work with Adam and Eve. Or do you visit them in the form of a fellow Yoman? What would be the benefit? First, you would be able to relate to them. Second, you would be given a chance to set up a system by which the lost among your creation can find a way back. (You may not go to the next step though which is the greatest expression of Gods love.)Finally, you give your perfect physical life in an agonizing death not for your own sake but for the sake of your Yomans so that they will never have to be seperated from you again. (If they choose.) Hope this helps.

Quote: "The life of every creature is in its blood, they believe that a creatures soul is in its blood, so very very sad." BrianOh, come on. It clearly says LIFE is in the blood not SOUL. By the way, you sound like you know where the soul resides. Could you tell me?[This message has been edited by ex libres, 01-14-2004]

Thanks for your compliment on my post. I could have included te Devil and just two t.v.s but I was trying to be as simplistic as possible so that the reader would get the general idea of what may be going on rather than teaching them theology; which should follow once you understand the concept. Did you notice, even with my simplistic analogy that the Trinity popped out? I notice many individuals in this forum have questions about the Trinity. I have a way to explain it in a simple form too. Check it out and give me suggestions.

Quote: But Ned, in order to substantiate the veracity and accuracy of the Bible, forums like this and Faith and Belief within EvC provide the avenue to go on for that. If the Bible, for example, is not consistent and sensible on matters of the trinity, it's gona be hard to argue for it's creation story.You make a point, however, it is not a valid point. The creation and the Trinity are mutually exclusive. Now, if you are trying to say "How can we trust one part of the Bible if another part is wrong?" Then here is an answer. Many history books claim Columbus discovered the Americas however we know differently. Does this mean the rest of the book is in error? Here is a more intruiging question:
How can the bible, with its many authors (around 70) from many walks of life and written and compiled over centuries of time can possible have been so much in agreement in matters of theme and form? Think about it. Get seventy people together and ask them to each write a different chapter for a book you are going to compile. They may not know what the others are writing. What are the chances that once compiled your book has a unifying theme?

QUOTE: The greatest problem I see, in connection with the Bible, is the pitiful state of those unfortunate souls who have fallen prey to Bible-thumping charlatans: those blood-sucking minions of a blood-thirsty god who capitalize upon innocent ignorance and simian superstition; all the while advocating an un-American form of government.dbThe greatest problem I see, in connection to you, is that self-serving heathens: those back-stabbing puppets of an Aryan icon (Darwin) who glory in deception: all the while advocating an un-American form of society.ExUn-American form of government? Are you kidding. Read a history book lately son? I would remind you that this America was formed for one, for the exercise of religious freedom.Mayflower Compact 1620
Agreement Between the Settlers at New Plymouth : 1620"IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia;..."Did you notice?
"Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith..."The Articles of Confederation of the United Colonies of New England; May 19, 1643
The Articles of Confederation between the Plantations under the Government of the Massachusetts, the Plantations under the Government of New Plymouth, the Plantations under the Government of Connecticut, and the Government of New Haven with the Plantations in Combination therewith:
"Whereas we all came into these parts of America with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity with peace;..."Nearly every state constitution including the US constitution contain refrences to god. The way our government is set up comes from scripture. "The lord is my judge (judicial), my king (executive)and my law giver (legislative)." Look at your money "In God WE (thats the US) Trust" Now if you are going to say that to be a Christian is antithetical to being American you are just plain crazy. If anything, societies shift to secular humanism is un-American. By the way, if the the constitution did not say that we are given INAILENABLE RIGHTS by our CREATOR, then would our rights be inailenable under man? All you have to do is look at the histories of other countries that abandoned God to see that when God is removed from control then tyranny occurs. For tons of examples see: http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/amdocs_index.html[This message has been edited by ex libres, 01-28-2004][This message has been edited by ex libres, 01-28-2004]

I agree with the ruling. Only, point out to certain individuals that when they slam Christians they are slaming me personally because I am a Christian. So if they say "you" or "Christians" in a disrespectful way such as the way the reciever of my response, he or she is doing the same thing.
QUOTE: The greatest problem I see, in connection with the Bible, is the pitiful state of those unfortunate souls who have fallen prey to Bible-thumping charlatans: those blood-sucking minions of a blood-thirsty god who capitalize upon innocent ignorance and simian superstition; all the while advocating an un-American form of government.Quote from Crashfrog: "What a hypocrite."Lets be equal here.
Thanks.[This message has been edited by ex libres, 01-29-2004][This message has been edited by ex libres, 01-29-2004]

You will have two possible responses. Either you will believe the word of god or you won't. Those who don't usually have a bias against anything supernatural and consequently remain in darkness. All I can do is show you what the word says. Your arguement is with the bible and Christ, not me. Here are the passages I know of.
Christ as GodJohn 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.John 4
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.John 8
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.John 10
30 I and my Father are one.John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.Micah 5
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Matthew 1
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Colossians 1
15 [Christ] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.God Always God and Always the Only GodDeuteronomy 4
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.