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Author Topic:   Is convergent evolution evidence against common descent?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 237 of 311 (215678)
06-09-2005 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by wj
06-09-2005 9:23 AM


Re: Fun with phylogenies
I can't copy the tree so go back and look at it again.
The marsupials cluster together; the placentals cluster together. The placental wolf and marsupial thylacine show less genetic similarities to eachother than to the other members of their own suborder. The marsupial durrant and placental mouse are as genetically far apart as any pair in that sample despite some external similarities.
I think a reasonable way of showing this when you can't post the tree is to sort the alignments score in descending order. In this example you can clearly see the three groupings - the marsupials with each other, the placentals with other and finally the marsupial and placental combinations at the bottom (exactly as everybody but randman would predict )
Sequences (2:5) Aligned. Score: 92 (Dunnart:Thylacine)
Sequences (1:5) Aligned. Score: 87 (Wombat:Thylacine)
Sequences (1:2) Aligned. Score: 87 (Wombat: Dunnart) unnart isn't a good thing to have in the text!
Sequences (4:6) Aligned. Score: 87 (Woodchuck:Wolf)
Sequences (3:6) Aligned. Score: 86 (Mouse:Wolf)
Sequences (3:4) Aligned. Score: 84 (Mouse:Woodchuck)
Sequences (2:4) Aligned. Score: 81 (Dunnart:Woodchuck)
Sequences (2:6) Aligned. Score: 81 (Dunnart:Wolf)
Sequences (1:6) Aligned. Score: 80 (Wombat:Wolf)
Sequences (5:6) Aligned. Score: 80 (Thylacine:Wolf)
Sequences (2:3) Aligned. Score: 80 (Dunnart:Mouse)
Sequences (4:5) Aligned. Score: 80 (Woodchuck:Thylacine)
Sequences (1:3) Aligned. Score: 80 (Wombat:Mouse)
Sequences (3:5) Aligned. Score: 79 (Mouse:Thylacine)
Sequences (1:4) Aligned. Score: 79 (Wombat:Woodchuck)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by wj, posted 06-09-2005 9:23 AM wj has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 239 of 311 (215683)
06-09-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by randman
06-09-2005 9:19 AM


Re: Inconsistent?
Mark, you are dodging the point. Just look at the Marsupial and Placental pairs. They can easily tell them apart due to the pouch vs placental thing. Without that, it would be a problem. Your post just seems to want to minimize what you guys claim convergency can produce.
I think you're very wrong about this. The following is from Animal Diversity Web:
Marsupials differ from placentals in a number of important and obvious ways. The palate of marsupials is usually "fenestrated," that is, it contains large gaps or spaces in its bony surface. The angular process of the dentary is inflected (bent) medially in almost all marsupials. The braincase is small and narrow. It houses a relatively small and simple brain compared to that of similar-sized placentals. The jugal is large, extending posteriorally so that it actually contacts and forms part of the glenoid fossa. The lacrimal canal is slightly anterior to the orbit so that it opens on the surface of the face rather than inside the orbital space. The bullae are sometimes not ossified, and when they are, they are formed largely by extensions from the alisphenoid.
Tooth form varies considerably among species of marsupials, but an easy and reliable character for recognizing members of the group is that the number of incisors in the upper jaw is different from the number in the lower (except in one family, the Vombatidae). The number is equal in most (but not all!) placentals. Also, the maximum number of incisors (seen in several families) is 5/4, in contrast to 3/3 in placentals. The number of premolars and molars also differs between the groups (3/3 4/4 in marsupials, 4/4 3/3 in placentals), and the pattern of tooth replacement (milk teeth by adult teeth) differs, but these traits are difficult to use to recognize specimens.
The postcranial skeletons of marsupials differ from those of placentals (but resemble monotremes) in that modern marsupials have epipubic bones in the body wall, projecting anteriorally from the pelvis (epipubics are vestigial in recently extinct thylacines and were absent in at least one extinct group).
Myers, P. 2000. "Metatheria" (On-line), Animal Diversity Web. Accessed June 09, 2005 at ADW: Metatheria: INFORMATION.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by randman, posted 06-09-2005 9:19 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by randman, posted 06-09-2005 4:36 PM MangyTiger has not replied

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