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Author Topic:   What is evolution?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 50 of 122 (466038)
05-12-2008 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Wumpini
05-12-2008 11:05 AM


Re: Factual Claims
Wumpini writes,
I may not agree with their conclusions, but I could accept the explanation.
Well, if you are 'regular folk' like you said you are, for what reason would you disagree with their conclussions? Seems by your statement you are not qualified to determine which conclusions are good ones and which conclusions are bad ones.
you said,
If you had said something like:
Based upon observations and scientific methods, scientists theorize that life became cellular 3.5 billion years ago, later became multicelluar, and then broadly diversifying some 500 million years ago.
The problem is that thats exactly what is said however, the word theorize is being used in scientific terms here and a Scientific Theory is a facts based theory. Species evolved, that parts the fact, the part that is theorized is 'how' it evolved. Using facts gathered through scientific methods they can better piece togther exactly what the evolutionary course was, but at no point is evolution not the understood process.
You could use your same statement for gravity or atoms. Science is a field of theories. Whats so conflicting about that?
you write,
I do not know if it is because we have different mental images of the words that are being used, or we do understand each other and are not in agreement on the capability of modern science to make these factual claims about events that supposedly happened millions and billions of years ago.
I would like to say in reply to this statement, assuming that you take God to be a better explanation, ask yourself, how credible are those religious folk who tell you 'their' stuff is true? How good are those old school religious folk with their 'method' for gathering facts?
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Wumpini, posted 05-12-2008 11:05 AM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Wumpini, posted 05-13-2008 5:41 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 58 of 122 (466200)
05-13-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Wumpini
05-13-2008 5:41 AM


Re: Factual Claims
Wumpini writes,
In my opinion, some of their conclusions contradict what I consider to be the inspired word of God.
Why don't you apply the same skepticism to the theory of gravity or the atomic theory? Why only evolution? The same methods of gathering and interpreting evidence that is used in the field of Evolutionary Biology, is the same method that is used throughout the entire scope of science, to include medicine. By your standards all of science is a field of misguilded conclusions, do you really feel that way?
you write,
I understand this. However, my definition of fact and your definition of fact is different. It is a fact when you find a fossil. It is an interpretation of that fact when you calculate how old you believe that fossil to be.
I'll reverse the arguement to you now, you had a religious experience and interpreted it to be God, which God then do you credit it to? Is it only based on your geographical location and what your current culture thinks God is? Or did you, like science, run a series of tests to establish the proper validity of the God you choose to have faith in? Did you subject your experience to peer review and have them try to confirm your experience? Did you do any double blind tests of more experiences to determine if your 'interpretation' is the right one? Or did you just go with your gut on that one?
you write,
Can you not see it takes more faith for me to believe in that conclusion than it does for me to believe in what God said He did?
No, I can see how you make that distinction. And again, which God are you talking about?
you write,
I would trust the common sense judgment of many of these non-scientific people over the blind faith that I am seeing taking place in much of the scientific world
So then your skepticism is bias? An honest person would subject all things to skeptical inquiry and not be one sided. Remember all cultures were under the God theory, it was skepticism that drew a new hypotheses. We have now, as a globally united people, removed the God theory simply because it is faith based and not because it is factual. Even if science is wrong with its theories, God doesn't just step in as a better theory, all the work is still ahead of you to prove a God.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Wumpini, posted 05-13-2008 5:41 AM Wumpini has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 64 of 122 (466227)
05-13-2008 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dr Adequate
05-13-2008 4:10 PM


Re: What is a fact?
Consider that the only "facts" that do not involve some measure of interpretation are statements about one's own qualia.
There's alot of people who would argue that this statement is not true...

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-13-2008 4:10 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 118 of 122 (467303)
05-20-2008 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Wumpini
05-20-2008 5:15 PM


Re: Scientists types are baffled?.
creation of the heavens
Can you define what you mean by 'heaven'?
Creation is Creation. It includes everything.
Then all creation stories are the same and should be clumped together as well i.e. Mythology, Paganism, Bahá'í Faith, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Vodou...oh yeah and Christianity. So you see as a whole they seem to contradict each other, and because of that, it all becomes ridiculous at that point.
If the creationist can successfully argue that something in the area of origins required supernatural intervention, then in his mind he has defeated the argument that everything can be or must be explained naturally.
He can argue till he is blue in the face, proof for what he claims to be supernatural must first be established. We argue about evolution and how it works all the time simply because everything looks evolved when you look at the fossil records. Evolution was established by observation first and has since been confirmed through genetics. The supernatural has not been observed but, is in fact the interpretation of a subjective experience from a first person account that then gets passed on to others by simply invoking faith as the catalist. This is not observable proof. This is 'take my word for it, its true'.
They only want scientists to acknowledge that a supernatural explanation is possible (even if it is not science).
Define supernatural without invoking the use of the word God, however, if you HAVE to use the word God then specify which one because I tend to lump all that God mumbo-jumbo togehter.
If you tell a creationist that it is a "fact" that they are cousins to a monkey, I really don't think they will care what definition is being used. They will probably disagree.
Why?
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Wumpini, posted 05-20-2008 5:15 PM Wumpini has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by IamJoseph, posted 05-20-2008 8:43 PM onifre has not replied

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