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Author Topic:   What is Liberal?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 302 (224951)
07-20-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tal
07-20-2005 3:36 PM


Tal's description is good in that it combines many of the meanins of the various political leanings.
The problem begins when there are these strict divisions in which a variety of issues are forced into one of the other two categories essentially making both sides equally wrong with regards to the various issues. I don't know if that made any sense by I'll try to explain.
I consider myself conservative with regards to civil rights and to much government contol over business, entertainment, technology, etc.
I tend to be very liberal when it comes to the environment, public health, safety, etc. The government should control our natural resources ensuring efficient use with little waste. The environment is everyones and as such needs to be controled by the body that everyone elects.
I think it sucks how much liberal extremism has infested some schools that will suspend a kid for bringing a bible to school. I also think it sucks when Kansas legalizes teaching religion in science class.
I think it is stupid to blow money on some of the social programs that exist but I absolutly think that we need a national healthcare system.
Sometimes I don't know what to call myself. I hate the stupid labels of democrat or republican and I don't really feel like I am either.
The one thing that keeps me "blue" is the alliance of the republicans with the neo-cons. There is no greater liberal extreme in this country that has the power to affect policy than them. It is kind of an irony that they are called neo-conservative.
Neo-cons like FCC regulations, the DMCA, the Patriot Act, constitutional ammendments to restrict civil rights, removal of the Establishment Clause, etc. These are blatantly not conservative ideals.
So what am I? I guess I would be a moderate. What is Bush? Most certainly a liberal under Tal's definition. What would Kerry have been? Also a liberal. What do we need? Better canidates!

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tal, posted 07-20-2005 3:36 PM Tal has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 6 of 302 (224953)
07-20-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
07-20-2005 3:59 PM


Yea that does make it hard.
Sometimes liberal means freedom sometimes it means socialism.
Sometimes conservative means responsible sometimes it means fascist.
What are we to do?

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 26 of 302 (225132)
07-21-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
07-21-2005 8:45 AM


Cleaning House
We often disagree Faith. Here I am going to partially agree with you.
I think it is far past the time that both "sides" really need to take out the garbage. It is a little sickening sometimes to see how both "sides" claim to have the complete moral high ground with respect to all issues.
WRT Religion:
I do think that some "liberals" need to re-establish their definition of religious freedom. The ability to exercise your faith within the law needs to be fought for ferociously whenever challenged and I find it a bit troubling that some on the left don't cry out louder and harder any time there is a case of religious persecution in the name of separation of church and state.
I also think that some "conservatives" need to re-establish their definition of the same. There are some that would rather see our education system destroyed than have it kept explicitly objective and secular. The whole reason this site exists is because of this issue.
WRT Technology:
I absolutely HATE the way the dems pander to then entertainment and technology industry. Things like the DMCA only serve to hamper American innovation in an extremely competitive world. Handling intellectual property in a way that protects innovators is fine but not at the expense of fair use. Information from the tech and medical industry needs to be more properly shared not locked away in black boxes. Guidelines need to be in place to make sure that sharing does not hurt innovators and nothing more.
On the other hand, I also absolutely HATE conservative bullying of entertainment industry. I am all for TV and video game ratings but what is the objective difference between banning a video game and banning a book? If you don't like obscenity on TV or in video games then don’t watch or don't buy them. Cheap technology exists to protect children from certain broadcasts. I don't know of a digital service provider that does not also provide family filters. The FCC needs to stick to its job of managing the air waves and stop trying to inject morals into artistic expression. These campaigns for laws banning content on mediums such as TV or the Internet need to be stopped by conservatives from within their own party. They are expressly anti-American. Its too bad that that retard Hilary has taken up with fight too. I have no idea what she is trying to prove by being fascist about video games.
WRT Environment:
"Liberals" can often times be waaaay to militant about environmental protection.
"Conservatives" can often times be waaaay to cavalier about environmental protection.
Everyone owns and is responsible for the environment and thus I feel it is one of the things that does need to be regulated by a representative body. We need to be aggressive in our efforts to increase energy independence even if it does put some strain on American business. No one is free to pollute with reckless abandon. That hurts everyone.
WRT Abortion:
At some point an unborn child is a real person. Pretending that it is not a person until it passes through a birth canal is a silly and reckless definition of life (I prefer RAZD definition of person ness that he presented awhile back). I see nothing wrong with reasonable restrictions on late term abortions.
Early in pregnancy there can be no objective determination that a cluster of cells is a person. To believe that it is is a religious belief. Moreover it is hypocritical to be pro-life and yet not be fanatical about women’s and children’s health post birth. Too many pro-lifers switch right back to being socially conservative immediately after a child is born. It is one of the greatest and consistent flip-flops in the conservative culture.
In Conclusion:
There is probably more that I am not thinking of at the moment. Overall I really just wish that the moderates in each party would stand up and do something about the crap. I want someone to say, "My party is not right on all these issues and this is why." Admit that the high ground is not exclusive to this ridiculous label of liberal or conservative. Clean house already and do what is right rather than what is attached the party line.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-21-2005 8:45 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-21-2005 1:10 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2005 1:11 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 30 by coffee_addict, posted 07-21-2005 1:16 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 32 by Yaro, posted 07-21-2005 1:24 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 66 of 302 (225188)
07-21-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
07-21-2005 1:11 PM


Re: Cleaning House
the last person i remember speaking out against a video game was a clinton.
Yea. Hilary is a wackjob. I just hope that the dems realize that in the primaries. I can't believe the type of politics she plays.
That being said, classically it has been the right who are all up in arms about stuff like Janet's nipples, Howard Stern, Desperate Housewives, porn, etc.
what gets me is the conservative misrepresentation of the case. roe v. wade specifically allows for the illegality of late-term abortions. one of the essential reasons (though not the most important) that they overturned the law in question was the over-broadness of it. it didn't allow for things like rape cases, or the health of the mother under certain circumstances.
It is going to be funny if ever both sides just top shouting at each other and realize that they really can agree on this issue. I am actually quite suprised that some havent taken this opportunity to break new ground. If it was done correctly, this would be stellar for their political career to be the ones attributed in bringing some resolution to the issue of abortion. Lets get some smart and reasonable restrictions on late term abortions.
what was razd's definition, btw?
I was suprised this got so little attention when it was introduced and I am still suprised to many regulars know so little about this thread.
Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2005 1:11 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2005 3:42 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 80 of 302 (225216)
07-21-2005 4:31 PM


Althought it probably wont work.
I really think the solution to the problem is to provide a larger vocabulary for catagorizing things.
There is the scale of government involvement with regards to various issues. To be on the Left of this scale is to be a socalist and the Right the opposite.
Then even within a particular issue, using this scale I can be Left with regards to the environment but Right with regards to the economy.
The neo-cons would be Left regarding speech, religion, and morality while being Right regarding healthcare and the economy.
Then there is liberal vs conservative. Being that liberals have classically wanted more rights it sometimes goes hand in hand with having the government spend more and control things more. That is probably why liberals are considered Left. Conservative values of fiscal responsibility align well with having the government stay out of the business of regulating things, potentially even if they make sense to do so. This is why conservatives might seem more Right.
That being said, a liberal does not have to be Left and a conservative does not have to be Right. These are just positions that happen to help favor their other political ideas sometimes. Why a liberal must be a money burning, war hating, baby killing, commie and a conservative must be a tight wad, rich snob, war mongering, oil loving, theocratic fascist I will never understand.
ABE: Posted too soon
If we just expand our definitions we will no longer just be lefties and righties. For myself it would be
Economic Rightist
Environmental Leftist
Civil Liberties Rightist
Health Care Leftist
Education Leftist
Gun Control Moderate (or whatever)
Election and Campaign Leftist
etc...
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 07-21-2005 02:34 PM

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