Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts

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Yeah, by being slaughtered for the purpose, paying tax for the right to go on living, and being treated like dogs they sure did help Muhammed establish Islam. This is off topic so don't expect *evidence" from me. There's plenty to be had without my help.

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You asked for it, Faith:Christians believes and tells us that Jesus is/was God and/or Son of God and/or (both). But one thing every Christian claims and/or agrees that "Jesus saves."I wonder why Jesus hopelessly failed to save hin own people for this alleged slaughter. Let us see what else Jesus hopelessly failed to save.1 His tachings (Gospel {where is the Gospel of Jesus}
Paul admitted in his Epistle (Gal 1: 6-7) to the Galatians:
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I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:001:007
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.The above statement of Paul is revealing three important facts:A. There was a Gospel of Christ, during the time of the disciples of Jesus.B. There was/were other gospel/s that was/were different and contrary of the Gospel of Christ.C. There were some people who wanted to distort and change the Gospel of Christ.2 Jesus hopelessly failed to save his alleged mother tongue from extinction.3 Jesus hopelessly failed to save the land, where Christianity was born. That land is 100% Muslim.4Jesus hopelessly failed to save his false religion (Christianity) that is divided into 94,000 sects wordlwide with 100s of thousands denmonation. Proving the Christianity is nothing but an outbreak of falsehood.Jesus, did not die for anyone's sin, if you read the NT; you will learn that Jesus was a convicted felon who was arrested for high crime of treason and blasphemy and for attacking the temple with his Hamas. That attack result is many deaths. This was the crime Jesus was arrested, prosecuted and convicted. Christians like to stupefy us by phrasing that: "Jesus purified the temple."

Terrorist attack on the Temple:

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The three synoptic gospels tell us an account of terrorist attack by Jesus on the temple. We read in:

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Mark: 011:015 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

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011:016 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

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Luke: 019:045 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;

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*Before this attack Jesus has already ordered in same chapter for killing of his enemies:

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Luke: 019:027 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

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Matthew: 021:012 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

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John: 002:013 And the Jews' Passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

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002:014 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

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002:015 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

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002:019 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

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NOTE: In chapter 2 of John, Jesus' behavior is more likely of a "juvenile delinquent" who goes to a party (wedding), demands wine. When his mother informs him that the hosts don't have wine, Jesus insults his mother followed by his alleged miracle of changing water into wine. The wine well liked by guests. This raises the question that if it is true than why Jesus asked for lesser quality wine comparing to his alleged wine of miracle? Nevertheless, Jesus after getting drunk goes to Temple with his gang and unleashes his terrorist attack on the Temple, it is by the way "Passover" day. That means Temple is very crowded and filled with pilgrims for all over.

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Luke: 022:036 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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022:037 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

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022:038 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

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The above verses clearly prove that Jesus was on rampage by over-turning the tables, throwing seats of moneychangers etc. But that is not it, as we see in the above verses that Jesus besieged the whole huge Temple allowing no one to come in and go out, he is physically assaulting people in the Temple and destroying their property. We also see that John is shining more light on this terrorist attack in which Jesus is lashing, bashing and trashing the Temple and claiming to be the king of Jews. This terrorist attack on Temple resulted in death of hundreds of people. We know it cannot be carried out alone that means Jesus probably has his rebel army with him. There is no evidence that Christian god died for original sin, he rather committed a felony of high crime and treason and was sentenced to death. We also see that Jesus was uncooperative and arrogant with authorities during investigation of this attack as we read further these chapters. Let us not forget the fact that Jesus was a Jew, that means he believed in (1) Holy war (2) Killing and fighting against disbelievers (3) Killing the apostates, all this is part of Mosaic Law.
To continue from above, if Jesus saves and he was Messiah; than why he didn't save his people (Jews) from the bondage of the Romans, which was Messiah supposed to do. When Jews literally asked Jesus, repeatedly, what is Jesus response?
He told Jews to pay *Jizyah* to Romans.
Matthew 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

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Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar‘s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar‘s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

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Mark 12:16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar‘s.

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Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar‘s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

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Luke 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

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Luke 20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar‘s.

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Luke 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar‘s, and unto God the things which be God’s.This can't be an act of Messiah or a Savior. It can only come from a Roman agent.Let us talk about Muhammad (SAW) and Islaam. That is foretold in the Bible explicitly and not some caca-maimie implicit gobbledygook that Christians claim to be about Jesus.Fulfillment of a Biblical Prophecy and a Prophesy of Glorious Qur’aan.Bible Foretold The Revelation of Qur’aan!I can give dozens of evidence and not just links or CAP (copy and paste). I am willing to debate and/or discuss point-by-point and/or claim-by-claim, Faith. And then you can show me how I am wrong or I can proves that you have no answers, beside making mere non-sensical assertions.Here is the proof of truthfulness of Qur'aan and "Faith's" sterotyped and constant bigoted assertions are testament of that, how Christianity ended up losing against Islaam.
Christianity’s own defeat i.e. political, intellectual, spiritual, social and moral at the hands of Islaam.

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The spread of Islaam and its acceptance even by its avowed enemies because of Islaam’s spiritual superiority and simplicity of its creed.

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The unalloyed purity of Glorious Qur’aan and its denunciation of the prevalent Christian creeds and dogmas, which is a stolen shroud of dead and decaying paganism through which Christians steeped themselves into an abysmal immorality.Glorious Qur’aan Prophecies that came to PASS!This link will tell you Faith, that how the Christians of Middle-East rejected the Christianity and embraced Islaam willingly. Not only that they adopted Arabic as their mother tongue. In Lybia, Syria, Iraq and Egypt (to name few) Arabic was not the mother tongue of people then.And in the history no nation, how week it has been has ever adopted the language of its occupiers. So, here goes in the gutter; your alleged allegation of slaughter and rest of blah blah. Frankly Faith, you could have just written blah blah blah, since it makes as much sense as your chosen verbal assualt on Islaam and Qur'aan.Checkmate
You opened the door and you asked for it!This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 09:20 PMThis message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 10:11 PM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

Checkmate,Your approach is too aggressive. This is a discussion, not a brawl. Please tone it down or there will have to be a temporary suspension of posting privileges.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi JarI am sorry I forgot to respond to your post, I was too much occupied with the verbal assaults on Islaam, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the Glorious Qur'aan, by Faith.Let me clear few things, especially my assertions and/or belief for Isa Ibn Mayram AKA Jesus (in English trasnaltions of the Qur'aan) and about other Biblical Prophets (PBUT). We Muslims believe as par tof our faith (and according to the Qur'aan as well) that message of Allaah has been same from Adam (AS) to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Thus, all Prophets were Muslims and practiced Islaam. When Allaah sent the Final Messenger Muhammad (SAW) perfecting his Deen (religion), the names Islaam and Muslims were given the Divine Inspiration, which are frequently used in the Glorious Qur'aan.Moses (AS) brought the Torah to Children of Israel and not the "Jews." The term and/or word Jew/s is used for those who accepted the message of Moses (AS) then and accepted his religion. I think the following would help from the Tafseer-e-Majidi:

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Israelites are a race, a nation, a people, a huge family, and the sons of a particular progenitor, conscious and proud of their high lineage. Jews are a religious community. A church, believers in particular tenets, members of a certain faith. The Glorious Qur’aan regard of the niceties of expression, has always observed this distinction. When speaking of the beliefs and practices of the Hebrews and those who had adopted their faith, it uses the term Jews when alluding to their history and their national traits it keeps mentioning ‘the children of Israel.’ The Israelites ceased to exist as a nation with destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. And thenceforth they became a purely a religious community. Many of the Arabs had, by the advent of Islaam, adopted the Jewish faith and usages. Hence the significance of the Qur’aanic expression ‘those who are Judaised.’ The children of Israel, so frequently addressed in Qur’aan, says D. S. Margoliouth, ‘were merely Arab tribes made Israelites by conversion.’ {Torrey, Jewish Foundation of Islam, p-23). Most of the Arab Jews, like the Jews of Abyssinia, seem not to have been genuine children of Israel, but native converts of Judaism.’(HHW. VIII. P-10) Judging by their proper nouns and Aramean vocabulary used in their agricultural life, these Jews must have been mostly Judaised clans of Arabian and Aramean stock though the nucleus may have been Israelites who fled from Palestine at the time of its conquest by the Romans, in the first century after Christ.’ (Hitti. Op.cit. p-104)

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As Msulims, we also believe that Islaam and/or Glorious Qur'aan in continuation of the previous messages, which got corrupted and/or distorted during the course of time and many Prophets were sent to bring back the lost people.We also believe according to Qur'aan and Bible both that all Prophets came to Children of Israel and/or were sent to only Children of Israel. Whereas Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was sent to all the mankind and the Jinns as Mercy, and no other Prophet will ever come and no other message will ever revealed. Qur'aan is the Final Revelation.For that I can connect the dots from OT to NT and to Qur'aan. Thus, dear jar, when I say Jesus Isa Ibn Maryam and/or Musa (AS) were Muslims, it is in that context and/or according to Qur'aan.But when "Jews" is mentioned, it is a misconception that names like Jews and/or Judaism have Divine Inspiration.{ALLADHENA HAADO WA } used in verse 2:62 in Arabic (the original language of Qur’aan) ‘can only be ‘those who are Judaised or those who have become Jews.’ ‘It is for the first time that the Qur’aan speaks of the Jews as distinct from the {children of Israel}.’ The two terms, though frequently used as synonymous, are not exactly co-extensive or interchangeable. Israelites are a race, a nation, a people, a huge family, and the sons of a particular progenitor, conscious and proud of their high lineage. Jews are a religious community. A church, believers in particular tenets, members of a certain faith.***
I hope this clear up the things as I was speaking from Islaamic point of view and/or belief. Nothing against the Jews, beside distinguishing the obvious difference.

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

I was not making a generalization about all authentic accounts, merely pointing out that in the Bible the historical framework is intrinsic to the revelation of the mind of God, the religion itself, and that the Koran makes no meaningful use of their few historical references at all, all of which are taken from the Bible and rewritten, none of which constitute anything original to Islam. I'm sure there are many other criteria of different kinds of authenticity, but the Koran just sticks them into the text, and they are obvious corruptions of the Bible. Anyone who believes the Bible recognizes their obvious subterfuge.As for whether the Bible is history, it is presented as history, it reads like history, it has the feel of history, and elements of it have been proved archaeologically to satisfy the complaints of Doubting Thomases as Mag Dev has pointed out. It does not need to be "confirmed" by unbelievers to be history. It is taken by believers to be history and has been for 3500 years, and we just go right on in spite of the debunkers knowing it is history. We hope you catch up but if you don't, so be it. Again I wouldn't generalize this to an all-inclusive definition of "authenticity" relevant to every kind of text. It is simply a way of contrasting the function of the historical passages in the Koran with the Bible's historical passages. They appear to serve no meaningful purpose in the Koran except a self-serving claim to supersede Biblical religion by imposing their own doctrine on Biblical history. They make Ishmael the heir rather than Isaac whom God chose, they demote Jesus to a mere prophet etc etc etc. Many cults do something similar, such as Mormonism. The Bible has many imitators and distorters.I didn't generalize about narrative structure. There are many kinds of authenticity. But history -- an account of events that happened in time and space -- requires witness evidence, that's why it is the focus here. History is written as a narrative, and the Bible is written straight through book after book as narrative history: this happened, that happened. An excellent writer may ape historical writing but actually the peculiar details of reality tend to be more peculiar than any fiction and are recognizable as reality for that among other reasons. C.S. Lewis wrote very convincingly about the ability to tell the difference, but I forget in which book. You may have to have an "ear" for it, as in "he who has ears to hear, let him hear" and of course no manner of argument will suffice in that case. Unless a person is willing to suspend his dogmatic scientistic expectations and just read the thing believing it as written. That might be more of a miracle than anything recounted there however. But I digress. I didn't make this claim as a generalization either, merely pointing out the obvious, that if plagiarism occurred it was obviously them taking from the Bible, not the other way around. There are other criteria for plagiarism, not just age. I did not generalize this criteria. The Bible is absolutely unique in its report of God's actions throughout history, its prophecies and fulfillments in actual time and actual places -- and this is why it emphasizes witness authentication. There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, else like it. There is NOTHING to which it can be compared in this regard. Again, I made no such generalizations beyond this specific frame of reference. The Bible has this KIND of authenticity, historical validity, witness validity. The Koran does not.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 11:34 PM

Hi AdminI am sorry, but I was provoked by Faith with constant assualts and hurlings insults against Islaam, Glorius Qur'aan and Prophet of Islaam; which are all contrary to known facts.Anyway, I have taken your message under advisement.Checkmate

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Now let's reset. We're trying to establish by what criteria we should assess the validity of eyewitness accounts in the Bible. In my Message 115, the one that you replied to here, I noted the contrast between ancient events in the Bible for which there is corroborating evidence (the Sennacherib campaign again King Hezekiah) and those for which there is no corroborating evidence (Jesus's Sermon on the Mount).

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I also noted that the amount of evidence required depends upon the degree of certainty required. In any area of study there will always be some things we can establish better than others, and there will also be some things we can never establish at all. There can't be equal certainty of everything. There can be no doubt that there is far more evidence for the Sennacherib campaign than for the Sermon on the Mount, and the criteria we establish in this discussion should enable us to place eyewitnessed events into a hierarchy of certainty. I discussed the criteria you offered earlier in my previous post.

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I believe the Sermon on the Mount happened because it occurs in a context I trust, in which other facts have been amply proved to me -- and the archaeological evidence has played its part in this -- in which God is made realer and closer by every bit of it I grasp, in which the character of Jesus is illuminated and deepened by everything he is said to have done as I come to grasp its meaning, and by the overall trustworthiness of the witness reports, all of which has been proven to me because I read it in faith.The sermon is consistent with all the other teachings of the Bible, it illuminates them, and they illuminate it. All the parts of the Bible take authentication and depth of meaning from each other as each is affirmed. The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that grows. If you have faith as a mustard seed it may start its growth by allowing you to grasp one tiny part of the Bible as a true revelation from God, even though the rest of it is alien to you and you have to put it aside for the moment or even years.If your faith is honest and genuine, however tiny, it will grow until you understand and embrace more and more of God's revelation. On the contrary, if you have no faith, if you assent to bits and pieces of God's Word on an intellectual basis only, if you read only intellectual critics and scorn the Bible exegetes of the legitimate churches, and reject other parts of it because your intellect is offended by them, with no trust in any of it as a revelation from God, of mysteries hidden from the natural mind, then you will never get it. It's as good as dead to you, this Living Word.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 10:58 PM

Board administration is aware of Faith's difficulties staying within the Forum Guidelines. Faith has a history of making frequent claims of bias, groupthink and persecution, and given that most of the moderators are evolutionists I thought perhaps we were blind to this and maybe she had a point. But though coddled for some time now she still strikes out irrationally and is given to fits of temper, and it has become apparent that the problem is less evolutionists and more just anyone who doesn't share her opinions.Board administration is working toward appropriate strategies for dealing with the issues someone like Faith causes. Though difficult, garrulous and occasionally abusive, she argues extremely well, has an agile mind, and raises many good questions and issues. In the meantime we suggest that others not allow themselves to be prodded by Faith into similar misbehaviors.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

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It is enough for the purpose of this thread that there are no eyewitness accounts in the Koran and no witness support for a single one of Mohammed's claims either to his own qualifications as a prophet or to his prophecy itself. If you believe the Bible then you should believe that God requires at least TWO witnesses for the establishment of any claim. Mohammed had only himself. The Koran has only Mohammed.

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Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demands. You have already established that you are absolutely clueless of Islaam, Qur'aan and about the Prophethood of Muhammad (SAW). However, the continuation of absurd claims contrary to all known facts, is just overkill.Obviously the Qur'aan does not gives any status to Christianity and never names "Jesus" is because false Prophets and their alleged doctored "eyewitness accounts" are not the scope of the revelation of Qur'aan. Since you are ignorant of Qur'aan, it would be my pleasure to educate you that Qur'aan is a Book of Guidance and not a court file containing some pious forgery committed 2000 years ago.As far as this absurd claim, of Muhammad (SAW) having no witnesses, a response in one word HOGWASH would suffice. But I would do much better than that.Muhammad (SAW) has more witness than entire Biblical Prophets combined {if any, which none is there from my point of view}. Even your Bible vouch for him, if you care to read; rather listening to a child molestor "Priest."Here is something from the redacted Bible, because Allaah has preserved the proof right in the doctored Bible.Bible Foretold Muhammad’s Miracle!Ka’abah and its superiority was foretold in the Bible!For more click here.If you care to dispute the validity of these prophecies from the Bible, I am open to debate point-by-point. Bring your proof otherwise and verifiable explanations and again, explain to me what they are about?Here is another point of view:If these words do not apply to Muhammad ی —, then they remained UNFULFILLED!Now, I will sit back and watch you SPIN. Checkmate

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

i'm not even reasonably convinced that the bible predicts itself, let alone another book of similar ilk.

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אָרַח

Yes, of course, faith is the key element in accepting the Bible as the word of God. I think that's what everyone on the science side has been saying all along. I expect that very few here have any problem with those who begin their spirtual journey based upon faith.But I haven't forgotten your claim that there is a significant intellectual component. I at one point said the Bible wasn't accepted as an article of faith but of fact, and that you accepted the Bible stories not because they appealed to your intellect but because they brought joy to your heart, and you replied in Message 143 of the A Working Definition of God thread: Okay, but now that you've finally conceded that faith is also involved, it is important to reiterate my earlier point, that you can't conclude that hard extra-Biblical evidence must exist just because the stories possessed intellectual appeal for you.Faith, if I could again bring up an old topic, you can't go about railing at everyone who holds different opinions. Find enough love and compassion in your heart for those who believe differently to treat their views with respect instead of scorn, belittlement, derision and dismissal. Do you really believe God needs or wants this kind of help? Conduct yourself humbly in the world and avoid arrogance. Pray to the Lord for assistance, he will answer.--Percy

Checkmate,The violations are minor, but every post from you skirts the Forum Guidelines. I've explained there's already one volatile person involved, I'm trying to keep things under control and you're making it harder. Take a break. I'll renable your posting privileges sometime during the day on Tuesday.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

this would be wonderful if the intellectual community (mostly, oh, i dunno, rabbis and priests) didn't have valid points.to ignore the stufy of the bible and understanding what precisely it is, how it came to be, how it works, and especially where it's problems are just to accept it all blindly on faith that it's the word of god is kind of silly, if you ask me and i know you didn't.i believe the root of this thread is this:how do you know it's the word of god? do you just believe the words of your pastor, or rabbi who is just trying to get you to believe? do believe it because it quotes witnesses who it very well could have made up? do you read it yourself and guess, or gather it from logic, which god could well defy? do you ask god, as the mormons do?

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"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:4)

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(ironically, the book of mormon failed that very test for me. ah well. )or is it just a gut feeling? faith?and if so, what gives us that gut feeling? you know what it's not?

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Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

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it just doesn't make me all tingly inside.

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Lev 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: [as] the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Lev 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.

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nor does it that. do we even CARE if those bits are the word of god?

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Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

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now this is a different story. good stuff.a little intellectual study lets us know what's important and what's not. what is of god, and was is of men. and as i pointed in another thread earlier tonight -- intellectual study tells that deuteronomy is a complete forgery. yet there's some good truths from god in it:

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Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

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and so i think in this respect, KNOWING that deuteronomy is a complete hack-job, and yet seeing that god still managed to deliver some good messages with it sort tells something even cooler about god...

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אָרַח

So we have established that the Pentateuch does not identify its author or authors and does not establishe - or even claim - that it is based on the testimony of witnesses.All we have is a few - maybe only one or two - short sections that contain things that Moses was supposedly told to write down. But there is no such statement applying to the bulk of the text.Those are the facts.

I want to try to write something about the problem of Biblical faith in response to Percy's last post but I'm not up to it tonight. I've said this to you before but you have to simply BELIEVE it, believe the Bible. I do not know if one can CHOOSE to believe it or not, I simply DID believe, at first just small parts while the rest didn't make much sense, but if you believe even a bit of it, believe those parts that you are attracted to, and you don't attack the rest of it with arguments, the parts you are attracted to will grow and you will understand more and more.But as long as you keep saying such nonsense as that "Deuteronomy is a complete hack job" you are believing the intellectual destroyers instead of believing God. Faith is NOT opposed to intellect, which is what I want to figure out how to say clearly if I can, but THIS kind of "intellect" that you and so many others here are practicing is nothing BUT destructive of the very possibility of the faith Jesus asks of us. It is NOT a feeling, it is a GRASPING and HOLDING of God's Word, the truth of it. You will never get there if all you do is read the critics.Our minds are fallen. We are easily persuaded by pseudo-intellectual pseudo-rational arguments. GIVE THEM UP, at least put them on a shelf out of sight for a while and try something else, because they are NOT getting you any closer to the truth. Find at least ONE thing in the Bible you can believe and HOLD ON TO IT FOR DEAR LIFE and stop all the arguments while you just read it and believe it for a while, and just skip over whatever you can't believe and don't argue with it. Again, ask God for help. Stop listening to critics.I only say this to you because you SEEM to be wanting to get at the truth, but are simply going about it the wrong way, rather than like some others here, who only care about proving all religion false.But if you won't you won't. Anyway I'm going to try to say something more about this problem tomorrow.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-26-2005 02:02 AM

That's true enough for what it's worth.But I have to point out your error nevertheless, as you've clearly overlooked the fact that on the 36th of Plutember the nodes of the fifth moon went into Phlogiston in the house of Uranus. I believe this completely cancels out every point you've ever made. Sorry.