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Author Topic:   Why complex form requires an Intelligent Designer
KBC1963
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 165 (357992)
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


Hello everyone,

I would like to discuss this essay that I have put together which I believe poses a new angle on the Intelligent design POV.
I feel tht this POV will form a distinct method for scientists to confirm the necessity of a designer for comples functional mechanical form (life)
This essay is basic in its design but it can become quite involved as more information dealing with specifics arises, so don't be put off by its simplicity of original form.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

This paper is for all of those people that have looked
at the structure exhibited by life and thought it was
beyond the possibility of evolutions mechanism to acheive.
For most people making this assertion turns into an argument
from incredulity because you can't explain exactly what
makes such structures impossible for evolution to form.

This problem is about to end.

The answer to why random mutation can't create complex
mechanical formation is because of the infinite
possibilities for 3 dimensional geometry.

Our DNA provides the blueprint for every structure formed
in our bodies. DNA codes for every aspect of 3 dimensional
form that we see, such as the femur of a sauropod, the
largest of which is about 6 1/2 feet tall. Pictured
below is a man standing next to a giant femur:

http://www.baystatereplicas.com/images/bone_apato_femur.jpg

And this same DNA can also code for the same bone in the
Shrew [Microtus agrestis] which has a femur length of
approximately 15mm or about 1/2 inch.
This observation opens up some undertanding as to what is
possible for the DNA to form, but it doesn't truly open
your eyes until you understand a little bit about 3D
geometry.
In school we all touched on geometry in math class and we
have all seen the various forms such as cubes and spheres
and that was no big deal as these were just common shapes
that made sense, however geometry is a much greater tool
for understanding than you thought.
3 dimensional geometric forms are so versatile that they
can't all be defined, they are in fact infinite in
possibility. As I showed above the 3 dimensional form of
just a single functional bone type within a living system
can exist in very extreme sizes, but that is just the tip
of the range of what possible shapes can be coded for by DNA.
What you don't see is all the other possible shapes that DNA
can code for. The 3 dimensional geometry of a femur can be
infinitely configured, it can be most any of the shapes
listed below or it could incorporate any of these geometries
as part of its shape:

polygon, bicentric polygon, concave polygon, constructible
polygon, convex polygon, cyclic polygon, decagon, digon,
dodecagon, enneagon, equiangular polygon,equilateral polygon,
henagon, hendecagon,heptagon, hexagon, Lemoine hexagon,
Tucker hexagon, icosagon,swastika, octagon, pentagon, cyclic pentagon, regular polygon, regular decagon, regular dodecagon,
regular hendecagon, regular hexagon, regular icosagon, regular octagon, regular pentagon, star polygon, decagram, dodecagram,
octagram, heptagram, hexagram, nonagram, pentagram, triangle,
acute triangle, anticomplementary triangle, equilateral
triangle, excentral triangle, tritangent triangle, isosceles triangle, medial triangle, auxiliary triangle, obtuse triangle
rational triangle, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle, isosceles right triangle, scalene triangle, Reuleaux triangle.
parallelogram, rhombus, Lozenge, rhomboid, Penrose tile,
Penrose dart, Penrose kite, rectangle, diamond, Harborth's
tile, square, trapezium, isosceles trapezium, quadrilateral,
cyclic quadrilateral, tetrachord, chordal tetragon ?
Brahmagupta's trapezium, equilic quadrilateral kite,
rational quadrilateral, strombus, tangential quadrilateral, tangential tetragon, trapezoid, isosceles trapezoid, Curved,
annulus, arbelos, circle, disc, Archimedes' circle, Bankoff
circle, circumcircle, excircle, incircle, nine-point circle,
crescent, lune, oval, Reuleaux polygon, rotor, Reuleaux
triangle, sphere, salinon, semicircle, triquetra,
Archimedean spiral, cubocycloid, deltoid, ellipse, smoothed
octagon

This list is by no means complete, these are just the shapes
that we have assigned names to for communication purposes.
The reality is that the range that geometric shapes can exist
in is infinite.
DNA could be coded to cause an infinite range of possible
forms just for one single bone, however, when it comes to
functional interactive mechanical form there is an extremely
finite range of possibilities that will allow for optimal
functionality in a mechanical system or a chemomechanical
system.
Our bone structure is controlled from the begining of our
existence till our death. Bone is constantly being
remodelled as we grow and it requires control throughout
its existence or it will cease to be an optimal component
within our mechanical system. One of the best ways to
visualize the level of control needed to keep our bone
structure relative mechanically is to see what the
structure of the bone is made of.
Osteoblasts are the cells that form new bone, they are
approximately 20 microns in diameter, which is equal to
about one thousandth of an inch. So every square inch of
bone surface has about 1,000,000 Osteoblasts. All of
these cells in each bone must conform to the blueprint
provided by the DNA in order to allow for optimal
mechanical form and function to exist within our living
system.

Now that we have delved into the enormity of what
comprises mechanical form we can confront the
evolutionary mechanism of random mutation head on.
The evolutionist belief that your structure can be
randomly found by mutation of genetic structure is
only realistic if there are finite possibilities for
a form to exist in. Their theory that by randomly
changing the code they can eventually hit a shape
that can be selected is unfounded in reality. It
becomes impossible when confronted with infinity for
possibilities that only contain a tiny range of
working possibilities.

One further wrinkle that we should note from current
research is shown below:

Quantitative Trait Loci for Femoral Size and Shape in
a Genetically Heterogeneous Mouse Population
Suzanne K. Volkman, Andrzej T. Galecki, David T. Burke,
Michael R. Paczas1, Maria R.Moalli1, Richard A. Miller,
& Steven A. Goldstein1.

Abstract
The aim of this study was to examine the genetic effects
on cortical bone geometry. Genotypes from 487 mice were
compared to geometric traits obtained from µCT. We found
14 genetic markers that associate with geometric traits, demonstrating the complexity of genetic control over bone
geometry.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve
&db=PubMed&list_uids=12929939&dopt=Abstract

Our DNA controls bone form by a multitude of separate
genetic influences and any one of these genetic influences
has an infinite range of possible values. Therefore we can
now show that our bones shape is not just infinite, it is
14 times infinite because of the vast array of other
parameters that accompany mechanical form. Remember, each
bone must grow in accord with the rest of the bones in
your body so You must also consider time and rate of growth
parameters for the entire life of the mechanical system
and any of these parameters can have a nearly infinite value.

With an infinite range of possible shapes and properties
random mutation has no hope of providing continuous
selectable changes over time to create the variety of
comlex mechanical forms we observe in living systems.
The only possible mechanism that can provide for the
patterns of mechanical form is intelligence since it
can logically choose the extremely minute functional
possibilities from within a sea of infinite nonfunctional possibilities.

Evolution is now checkmated by a logical and definable
reason, and we can infer directly the necessity of an
Intelligent Designer.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 10-21-2006 6:06 PM KBC1963 has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-21-2006 6:08 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2006 6:14 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 6 by RickJB, posted 10-21-2006 6:17 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 9 by subbie, posted 10-21-2006 6:33 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 10-21-2006 6:35 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2006 10:37 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2006 11:11 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 38 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-22-2006 4:22 PM KBC1963 has responded
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1802
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 2 of 165 (357999)
10-21-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


Topic promoted to Intelligent Design
Welcome to EvC. Im gonna give you a chance to respond to the forum and promote you to Intelligent Design.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 5:45 PM KBC1963 has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1802
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 3 of 165 (358001)
10-21-2006 6:07 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9501
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 165 (358003)
10-21-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


The definition of a potential Intelligent Designer
The definition of this forum is Is evidence of the divine apparent in the design of nature itself?. When you talk of an Intelligent Designer, you can only mean one of three sources:
1) Humans
2) Aliens from another planet.
3) God--by definition a supreme Being.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 5:45 PM KBC1963 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6387
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 5 of 165 (358004)
10-21-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


quote:
With an infinite range of possible shapes and properties
random mutation has no hope of providing continuous
selectable changes over time to create the variety of
comlex mechanical forms we observe in living systems.

Perhaps, but no one claims that random mutations by themselves are all that is necessary for evolution to occur. You forgot the take into account natural selection. Random mutation with a nonrandom selection process just might be able to produce these forms.


"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 5:45 PM KBC1963 has responded

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 6 of 165 (358005)
10-21-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


The only possible mechanism that can provide for the
patterns of mechanical form is intelligence since it
can logically choose the extremely minute functional
possibilities from within a sea of infinite nonfunctional possibilities.

Why is a "logical choice" needed? Cannot the physical nature of the material itself (and the environment in which it operates) dictate structure?

Ever seen a snowflake?

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/photos/photos.htm

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 5:45 PM KBC1963 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 6:36 PM RickJB has responded

  
KBC1963
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 165 (358008)
10-21-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
10-21-2006 6:08 PM


Re: The definition of a potential Intelligent Designer
I am not sure if this is a response to my post or not I will await further information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-21-2006 6:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
KBC1963
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 165 (358010)
10-21-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
10-21-2006 6:14 PM


Quote "Perhaps, but no one claims that random mutations by themselves are all that is necessary for evolution to occur. You forgot the take into account natural selection. Random mutation with a nonrandom selection process just might be able to produce these forms."

I have indeed taken NS into account. NS can only select from what is presented therefore it is fully upon random mutation to make the structure for NS to choose it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2006 6:14 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2006 6:42 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 13 by Taz, posted 10-21-2006 6:44 PM KBC1963 has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 165 (358011)
10-21-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


Your argument assumes two things for which there is no foundation.

First, that there are an infinite number of possible genetic combinations and that these possible combinations could produce an infinite number of possible bone shapes.

Second, that the genetic combination that produces a bone shape for a given organism is simply plucked at random from among the infinite number of possible combinations.

Unless and until you can support both of these assumptions, your observation is about as interesting as noting that everyone's legs are just long enough to reach the ground.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 5:45 PM KBC1963 has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4241
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 10 of 165 (358013)
10-21-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 5:45 PM


KBC1963 writes:

Evolution is now checkmated by a logical and definable
reason, and we can infer directly the necessity of an
Intelligent Designer.

I can't comment on the biology but it would seem to me that evolution can't be ruled out the basis that you outlined if you accept the concept that evolution could have been intelligently designed.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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KBC1963
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 165 (358014)
10-21-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RickJB
10-21-2006 6:17 PM


Quote "Why is a "logical choice" needed? Cannot the physical nature of the material itself (and the environment in which it operates) dictate structure? Ever seen a snowflake?"

Mechanically functional form has no law to cause it to arise therefore it must be formed some other way.
Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity.
A snowflake follows rules of form according to atomic structure of water. Your bone structure has no atomic structure to cause a specific formation, thus you can have a bone in the shape of a femur or a pelvis, both of which are distinctly different in mechanical function and form.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RickJB, posted 10-21-2006 6:17 PM RickJB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by anglagard, posted 10-21-2006 6:49 PM KBC1963 has responded
 Message 15 by RickJB, posted 10-21-2006 7:18 PM KBC1963 has responded
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6387
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 12 of 165 (358017)
10-21-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 6:29 PM


If you have, then you have done so incorrectly. Random occurrences with a non-random selection process can reduce the odds against a improbable event. This is well known. Gamblers use this to their advantage. In computer science genetic algorithms produce solutions to problems too complex to be designed by a designer. You are assuming that the probablities of each possibility is independent, but they are not; natural selection eliminates most of the possibilities.

You are misapplying probability. My guess is that you don't have much training in probability, and I am certain you don't have any training in biology. The entire OP shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter.


"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 165 (358018)
10-21-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 6:29 PM


KBC writes:

I have indeed taken NS into account. NS can only select from what is presented therefore it is fully upon random mutation to make the structure for NS to choose it.


Forgive me, but it really looks like you are using a very cleverly disguised creationist strawman. You worded your 'essay' to sound like the entire bone just popped up from mutation overnight. In other words, you are arguing from the point of view that evolution says something like the mandible just came into existence fully formed fully functional. That's not how evolution works!

PS You're not talking to a bunch of dumbasses. Flashy words and clever sentences won't impress anyone here.

Edited by gasby, : further thought


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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 14 of 165 (358021)
10-21-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 6:36 PM


What on Earth?
KBC1963 writes:

Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity.

What is this statement supposed to mean?

I would say that it would be a bit difficult for people to breathe on the bottom of the ocean, or for most fish to walk around in the desert.

Environment cannot dictate form?


This message is a reply to:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 15 of 165 (358028)
10-21-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by KBC1963
10-21-2006 6:36 PM


KBC1963 writes:

Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity.

Environments (and selective pressures) vary, hence diversity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by KBC1963, posted 10-21-2006 6:36 PM KBC1963 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by KBC1963, posted 10-22-2006 10:32 AM RickJB has responded

  
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