Fossil Sorting in the Great Flood Part 2

Hi Guys,
This is my first post. I am a Christian and this kind of debate fascinates me. First of all I am not a recent creationist at all.
'Flood geology' to me is full of flaws. Having studied geology at college seeing rock sequences, unconformities, evidence for ice age, wave cut platforms, isostacy, sea floor spreading etc..the earth has had a long history. However there is an explanation for the flood all recent creationists would have missed in the form of end of the last ice age. Sea levels rose by a staggering 80 metres. People would have been living in coastal areas depending on fishing, agriculture on fertile flood plains. There is plenty of evidence for extreme flash flooding in India just at the point of the end of the ice age and recently flooded cities off the coast of india have been discovered. In the UK one can still see flooded river valleys (look at the coast of Cornwall) and wave cut platforms due to Isostacy in Scotland..
There is absolutely no way that sorting of fossils in to one single event could ever happen. In geological time, the rocks that were laid down once subject to uplift and folding would be subject to erosion too. Thats why marine shale deposits can be found at the top of mountains. No mystery there.

"No Upper or lower creataceous boundaries. THe layering of Rock kinds is a human interpretation of Rocks in the field. In fact the only boundaries are those separated by events. Like with a layered cake. The layered cake is made instantly not one layer everyother week."I have to refute that one. Come with me for a field trip and you can see a whole succession of events. Not every sedimentary rock was laid down under water. Take the old red sandstone in England dating back to the Devonian (345 to 395 million years ago) This is basically a fossilsed desert complete with sand dunes, garain sorting and none of the levels are parallel. the rock is red because the iron in them was exposed to oxygen having formed above ground. Could you show me by an experiment or someother means you get complex geological formations from event?
I could recommend a good book by Alan Hayward "creation and evolution, the facts and the fallacies". I believe in a creator God, but not in the interpretation you are holding on to.

To Mike King ( by the way welcome) there is no evidence of long geologic history only evidence of history and then human interpretation.
The trip you offer would only show the same thing as my backyard. Flat or folded or crushed rock creations. All explained, and more plausibly, by events and not slow development.
Look at any rock, almost, and it shows evidence of sudden destruction.
Flat rocks show evidence of uniform creation that dos not occur today anywhere because it does not happen. It takes a great event.
You say offer experiments. Well since you say yours is the dominate position accepted today. YOU FIRST. However you can't nor I since geology is not a scientific study but a historical study not open to testing.
Thank you all RobRob,
Not all rock shows evidence of sudden destruction. You can see geological happenings here and now around the world. Rivers carry fine sediment from eroded rock. The finer the sediment, the longer the erosion of a long long period of time. How would explain unconformities and conglomerate rock?Don't get me wrong, but Jesus is my lord and Saviour, but if we applied the same interpretation to the Bible as a historical docoment and not recognise the picture language used in Genesis 1 as a prose to remember the Sabbath, then how would you interpret John's vision of a third of all the stars falling to Earth in Revelation?

With that kind of reading material, there are no counter arguments

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You brought up the example in John about one third of stars falling to earth. Well this is probably the one place where the Bible indicates there was another event that afted the universe. After the fall but before the flood a cosmic war took place. This is where all the great meterities on earth and other planets and moons came from. Also why the galaxy has such mess everywhere. The stars did fall to earth perhaps most not connecting but many did and there is evidence always coming to light now. These meterites were later filled by sedimentary rocks from the flood. And since the meteors would of surely killed animals and yet there was no death before the flood then it must of been after the flood.
I will in a few days be kayaking around an important geologic line in ontario. Where pre-cambrian rock just starts to be overlain by sedimentary rock just before glaciel mess joins in. A special place so I anm very aware Mike of Rock sequence and have read a great deal about to assure myself it fits with creationist models. It does and in fact shows evolutionist models to truly bne strange in thier efforts to bring great lengths of time to account for rock creation or manipulation.
All the best

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Hi Robert,
You and I have the same faith, but your interpretation of the third of the stars is picture language for the Devil and his angels being cast down to Earth. It has nothing to do with Geology. The creation story in Genesis chapter 1 is a poem (it even rhymes in its original language) of why God rested on the seventh day and made it holy (set apart). It certainly is not a scientific document.
I cannot agree on where planets, moons and meteorites came from with you because all the bible has to say on the matter is ..he created the stars also..
Christianity is a reasonable faith and I think that these kind of assumptions only cause bad witness to the truth and the fine fabric of what God made over millions of years to the most crucial point in mankind's history to reconcile us to him.
To quote Albert Einstein (who was a believer) "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
To the non believers in this forum, one can analyse a painting by the materials, the paint compostion, thickness of strokes, but until you see the art behind it, you miss the whole point

What can I say to that? Please see reply below..This message has been edited by Mike_King, 07-16-2004 07:04 PM

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Mike you must accept that America today is a more achieving and thus intelligent nation then Great Britain.
In short we know better. Evangelical Christians are at present aheah of Christians in your country in these areas of origins and British folk should seek out our work to see the great confidence with which we speak and our taking back society for the inclusion of the Bible creation truth. We are feared and our opponents hear the ground shaking. Perhaps you hear something over there in England and this is what got you interested. Well you ain't heard nothin' yet.
Regards Rob

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Sorry Rob,
But having been to your country and worked on the streets of New York with a church on long Island feeding the poor and homeless (http://www.hopeforthefuture.com), I would say the UK has a lot to learn from the USA. With the lack of a suitable welfare state, health care service etc in the US, that is light years ahead of the UK..! At least in this country we have a free healthcare service. We would never treat our own citizens the same way..
Intelligence? Well only you guys know better! After all you seem to know more..
As the ground is shaking beneath our feet, does that mean you believe in plate tectonics?
What interests me in such discussions is that nowhere in the bible does a literal interpretation of the creation story is needed. And that your kind of posts give us christians a bad name. Not all christians are YEC..
The flood story is easily explained; the end of the last ice age, sea levels rose by 80m very fast, and people living in low lying plains, and near coasts were washed away. Evidence? There are recent discoveries of whole towns beneath the black sea when the Bosporus broke through from the Mediterranean Sea(..waters rose from the earth..) and massive flooding over the Indian sub-continent, Persian plains (alluvial deposits on a massive scale No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Black_SeaIf you agree, I can send you some reading material on science and faith issues.

Hi Rob,
I never said I did not believe in the flood, it happened and God made it happen, suddenly. Evidence? The end of the last ice age. I think that is the evidence that you must look to. This was God's judgement at that time. Ever since then geologically speaking, the mountains that were once ice bound are rising by upto 4mm or even more per year by what geologists call isostacy since the weight of upto a mile of ice has been released.
There is no basis for a conflict between mainstream christianity (I am an evengelical christian, our church has links to Airport Christian fellowship in Toronto) and geolocical science.
I think your interpretation needs looking at, the bible is written in at least 6 different styles; letter, prophesy, poetry, song, history and picture language. You must be aware of this when reading the text!

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But back on the Flood, that too had been falsified long before Evolution was even considered

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But the flood DID happen, at the end of the last ice age, but not to the point like YEC would mean with all geological strata and forms being laid down. It was simply ice melting and raising sea levels to around 80m higher than they were..

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Evolutionary biology,geology,cosmology, are studies of history. Not Scientific studies.

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Well Robert,
Try telling a fellow Christian that who is doing research in Cosmology into Black Holes. Her name is Christine Done and very much a Holy Spirit filled one at that! She wll find that very interesting to be labelled as a historian! Here is a recent paper she did on black holes. My wife used to belong to the same church as hers before she left Durham to live with me after our marriage. No webpage found at provided URL: http://universe.nasa.gov/press/2003/030331a.htmlI also think she is a little more intelligent than your average North American!

Here is an interesting link that refutes the creationist view of fossil sorting No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/sorting.htm

Well, I actually believe the flood happened, but not with the YEC viewpoint. I am a christian and the evidence for a flood is overwhelming. Its has nothing to do with sedimetary rocks or anything like that, its like I stated before; massive sea level rise after the last ice age.

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How about catastrophic local floods, such as the catastrophic Black Sea fill in. It has been hypothesized that entire civilizations were wiped out by a sea that grew by meters a day. Not only that, but we also have numerous catastrphic floods in the Tigris/Euphrates valley and the Nile Valley as well. This, compared to the "glacial" slowness (sorry for the pun) of rising sea levels after the last ice age. It would seem to me that local catastrophes were extrapolated to being world wide in effect through the mechanism of hyperbole.

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Hardly slowness at all. You are right about the black sea fill in, but that was a consequence of rising sea levels. There is a lot of evidence to suggest the rise in sea levels was catastrophi; the land and ice locked lake where the North Sea of the UK east coast broke through between Dover and Calais where once there was a land bridge. This resulted in boulders being pushed 60 mile and more down the English channel. Such events occured all over the Nothern Hemisphere. But the largest happened over the Indian sub continent and also the what is now Iraq.
Locally to me, the north Shropshire plain and Cheshire in England was a ice locked lake and broke through at Ironbridge to form a gorge.
All this was no slow melting of glaciers like we see today..

Here is a photo Robert that shows without any doubt 3 episodes;
Sedimetation, tilting to 90 degrees, followed by erosion then a new layers laid on top. Please explain this directly

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Been away.
OK this is a excellent example.
The sedimentation shows the waters/pressure of the fllod fossilising the debris.
Then the continents in movement in the same year did the tilting.
The last thing could be explained by pressure at the end of the continental movement. Of coarse after weathering would take place.
Regards

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Robert,
Nonsense! Continents move at around 2cm per year. That photo shows 2 different periods of sedimentation; In order that the vertical layers to get eroded was to be above water, then sink below sea level and then redeposited on, then another uplift above sea.
Where do you get your strange ideas from?The bible is very clear about the flood, but it does not talk about mountain building events at that time. Also, how did the olive tree survive all that upheaval?Give me you emial address and I will send you a copy of some interesting reading material from a Christian perspective on all this..