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Author | Topic: "The Exodus Revealed" Video II | |||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
I have a question to pose in general concerniong the chariot wheel.
Is there a picture anywhere showing the chariot wheel after they removed the coral that would show us a better resolution of this conflict? This message has been edited by sidelined, 08-08-2004 02:14 AM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4024 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Well, since we are liars,fools,closed minds,refusing to accept the evidence,etc.,etc. on this forum, I thought I might bring in a few outside viewpoints, including a SDA archaeologist, Christians,the Curator of Archaeology,Israel Antiquities Authority and a couple of skeptic sites explaing how to savvy pseudoscience. Enjoy.
A Great Christian Scam Joe Zias, former curator for Anthropology/Archaeology at Israel Antiquities Authority Weighs in on Ron Wyatt's Archaeolgical claims William H. Shea comments on Ron Wyatt's So-called Archaeological Discoveries Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research Fraud Documentation (WAR, W.A.R.) What is pseudoscience? http://www.physics.smu.edu/~pseudo/baloney.html
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Here's your info. I went browsing throughout both of the old threads and pulled the links where I posted my old messages. There is a ton of info couched in these threads. I also encourage reading the rebuts of the critics as well as the messages that some of my messages were meant to be responses to: Read Message 81 & 82 EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists 81 has some talk about some high-profile scientists examining the evidence, no details about who and how — So an assumption and no evidence to back it up 82 is some pictures and some stills from the video around the wheels — lots of claims — still no actual discussion of the verification process, if any
Read Message 149 EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO More general claims, some using circular reasoning: it’s in the book, so therefore the book is right. Claims (just like those around evolution) that more and more scientists are coming around, no names given. More claims about the amount of evidence, still no details of how independent verification was performed or even occured.
Read Message 170 & 179 EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO 170 has some links to some news sites. The contention is that, if news sites are interested, the story must be true. Anyone want to buy Hitler’s diaries? 179 is long and rambling. Lots of theories, still no production of any evidence that has been tested
Read Message 229! (very good) & 240 EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO 229 — more claims, still no actual sign of any testings. 230 is actually more interesting, it seems that we have to be careful as wyatt has powerful enemies who will stop at nothing to destroy his work. It is standard X-Files stuff I had the evidence but it’s gone! 240 has lots of claims and assumptions — no evidence offered to support them I got bored at this stage, I may look at the rest later.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Let's have a look at some of the links provided:
Lots of stuff here, including the usual 15 feet men A nice picture of the Starship Enterprise is maybe the only reason to visit this site. The evidence for the exodus seems to consitute of pictures of video/book covers (and of course, links to buy those things).
This claims that Wyatt's claims are correct because two people say that it is (in the bible two eyewitnesses means that an account is true). I'm reminded of the simpsons at this point: Your tears say more than real evidence EVER could...
3. Forbidden Evidence..sorry site not found
4. Forbidden Evidence..sorry site not found
Now this one is sort of interesting, however Fundies can't help themselves... One source of evidence is "people have testified", the other is that "Satan is trying to cover up the evidence". Of course he is, now just drink this kook-aid right up...
Stand back! I've got a MOLECULAR FREQUENCY GENERATOR and I'm not afraid to use it!
the old stand-by "We will not be bullied into revealing all of our research until we are finished with our work" - or maybe any of it? Let's face it, you can't be too careful if Satan is running around trying to cover this stuff up This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-08-2004 10:16 AM
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Jim,
Brian, you misquoted Exodus 14:2 -- you wrote: " "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth..." -- when Exodus 14:2 says NOTHING about turning "back" to Egypt, it says, "that they TURN and encamp before Pihahiroth"! It just says "turn," which means turning in either direction -- the text does NOT say that they "turned back to Egypt"! Jim, you can disagree with the translations I use, but in all honesty you cannot accuse me of misquoting. In the majority of Bibles the verse says turn back, whether you agree or not I certainly did not misquote.
Regarding Numbers 33, yes, Etham is mentioned twice. Which means that the Hebrews encountered it first before they crossed the gulf, and then encountered "the wilderness of Etham" (verse 8) AFTER they crossed the Gulf of Aqaba! Indeed, because they arrived there, then turned back into Egypt, crossed the sea, and then arrived back at Etham again.
-- and on the map that Ron had me draw for him back in 1992, he placed Etham as an area that wrapped around the top of the Gulf of Aqaba, so it was technically on BOTH sides of the Gulf of Aqaba. It was a REGION, not a city. I would be extremely interested in how Ron arrived at this conclusion, what led him to conclude that Etham was a city at the Gulf of Aqabah? I know there have been various proposals for the location of Etham, and that its location is still uncertain, but a logical conclusion is that Etham is close to Succoth, more than likely on the eastern extremity of the Wadi Tumilat in the region of Lake Timsah. One possible meaning of ‘Etham’ is ‘htm’ (‘Egyptian for fort’), and this fits in very well with the host of military sites in the region. The region of Succoth was a well-known military zone, there is testimony in Papyrus Anastasi 5 and 6 to four or possibly five different military outposts in the region. Etham was the stop after Succoth, and it is logical to assume that it had to be fairly close to Succoth for the Israelites to reach it within a day’s travel. The Bible locates Etham on the ‘edge of the wilderness’ and this also fits in very well with the area east of tell el-Maskhuta. To support the location of the Sea of Reeds in Egypt we can add Migdol to our list of evidence. Exodus 14:2 places Pi-hahiroth between the sea and a site called Migdol with Migdol being a Semitic word for ‘tower’ or ‘watchtower’. The Egyptian equivalent is ‘mktr’ a widely used loanword meaning ‘fort’, fortification’ and ‘stronghold’ during the New Kingdom (Hoffmeier, James K, Israel in Egypt, Oxford Uni Press, New York Oxford. 1996, p.189). The Bible tells us that the Israelites were in the area of Succoth so it is logical to look for a ‘Migdol’ in or near this area, and there is such Evidence for a fort in the area at the end of the Wadi Tumilat and Lake Timsah region. In Papyrus Anastasi 5: I reached the enclosure wall of Tjeku on the third month of the third season, day 10, they told me they were saying to the south that they had passed by on the third month of the third season, day 20. Now when I had reached the fortress, they told me that the scout had come from the desert saying that they had passed the walled place north of the Migdol of Seti mer-ne-ptah, life, prosperity, health, Beloved like Seth. (Text in Pritchard, ANET, page 259) The fact that Succoth, Etham and Migdol can all be linked through the military connection with Wadi Tamilat/Lake Timsah area, is a strong argument that the Israelites crossed a body of water in that area. A very big problem with the crossing at Aqabah, and another one that supports an Egyptian crossing site, is found in the Bible itself. Exod 13:18 has the Israelites going ‘by the way of the wilderness’, the ‘wilderness’ is identified in Exod 15:22 as the ‘desert of Shur’. According to the Bible: The Wilderness of Shur is located on the other side of yam sup. (Exod. I 5:22), Shur is east of Egypt (1 Sam. 15:7 ‘Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt.), Most convincing is (1 Sam. 27:8. ‘Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt’.) The references from The Book of Samuel are useful because they refer to events taking place in the Negev and moving toward Egypt, undoubtedly placing Shur or the ‘Wilderness of Shur’ south of the coastal highway and north of central Sinai. Shur has simply got to be situated in Sinai, east of El-Ballah Lake in the north and the Bitter Lakes to the south. It is impossible for the wilderness of Shur to be located anywhere near Aqabah, it essentially doesn’t fit with the topographical information that we have.
Reagarding a body of water being northward of the top of Suez, there never was a body of water there that would qualify as being "the heart of the sea" (Ex. 15:8) -- and the term "great deep" is repeatedly used for the crossing site, so there is no way that Pharoah's army was drowned in a 2-foot deep "Sea of Reeds"! That wouldn't be "the great deep"! (Isaiah 51:10, 63:11-13, Nehemiah 9:11, Ex.15:5,8). I am afraid that you are mistaken here, there are many bodies of water in that area that can accommodate our requirements, for example: The Bitter Lakes, Lake Manzeleh, Lake Sirbonis, Lake El-Ballah, Lake Timsah. Lake Timsah would be my proposal for the location that the Bible authors had in mind for the sea crossing myth. It fits perfectly with the description given in the Bible and has external textual support. The Israelites leave Pi-Rameses, and marched to Succoth, then on to Etham, they then turned back to Pi-Hahiroth, and camped near Migdol. Now, Succoth, Etham and Migdol can all be strongly argued to be in the military region of Wadi Tumilat, therefore Lake Timsah is an excellent candidate for the sea. It is unquestionably more suitable than Aqabah. Also, I wouldn’t be too tied to reading these Bible verses in a literal sense, they are all heavily laden with mythological motifs. But, the fact remains, there are more than enough lakes in Egypt to satisfy the location of the myth..
As we've been saying for 20 years, the only route that makes sense and matches the biblical description is Ron's Exodus route I have to disagree, the location of the crossing at Aqabah makes no sense at all in light of the topographical evidence in the Egyptian and biblical sources. Not only does it not gel with the textual and geographical evidence, there is no way that the Israelites could have reached Aqabah before the Egyptians caught them. It would have taken them about three weeks to reach Aqabah, Thutmosis III’s armies could average 24 KM a day, four times the distance that nomadic groups can cover.
(especially since your route only takes people to St. Catherine's mountain, a place that has zero evidence for being Mt. Sinai) -- Galatians 4:25 says that Mt. Sinai is "in Arabia" -- the land of Midian -- and that land is currently known as Saudi Arabia! I haven’t presented a route for the Exodus Jim, I have only argued that the sea crossing was somewhere within Egypt, I haven’t said anything about what route they took after they left Egypt.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Lysi,
Brian, "turn back" simply means they were on their way to the promised land (on top of the Gulf of Aqaba), and God told them to "turn back to Pi-hahorith", meaning, "instead of going on, turn back to go into the Wadi that leads to Pi-hahorith". This is based on what exactly? Is it possible that sub CAN mean a 180 degree turn, or is it impossible?
What waste of time of trying to figure out that silly verse folks. All you have to do is look at the map correctly, and you can easily figure out what it means: I don't think it is a silly verse, it is part of the only description that we have of the route. What is the location of Pi-Hahiroth based on? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi L,
There is a whole slew of extra info that lead us to believe the Exodus happened during the 18th dynasty besides Merneptah's stele, so I wouldn't put too much weight on that...since even if you are right, it doesn't negate all the other overwhelming evidence that completely negates a 19th dynasty scenario. Well Lysimachus, you certainly havent provided anything at all to make me reconsider the 19th dynasty as the dynasty of the 'Exodus'. I don't put too much weight on the Merneptah Stele, I am not convinced and neither is anyone else that the Israel on it is the biblical one. What does convince me that the 19th dynasty is out of the equation includes the Amarna letters, Glueck's excavations of the transjordan sites where the Moabites, Edomites and the Ammonites were supposed to have encountered the Israelites, the excavations at Kadesh barnea, the invisibility of Joshua's conquest, and, in an area famed for its inscriptions, Israel is not mentioned for certain until the mid 9th century BCE. And we havent even touched on textual and source criticism at all. Brian.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Well it's funny - we keep getting told that they don't have time to list the evidence in the simple template I provided - strange how they have time to produce lengthy essay-type posts....
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
The 'evidence' that they do provide shows a complete ignorance of arcaheological and historical methodologies. Items are linked together for no particular reason at all other than it might fit the Bible accounts, and the thing is, most of them do not even fit that. Competent archaeologists will never go anywhere near Aqabah, they really don't need to. Even if there is no dispute about the presence of wheels at Aqabah, recovering these wheels (for the purpose of supporting the Exodus) is a waste of time and money, what on Earth do these people think we can learn from recovering chariot wheels from Aqabah, this 'evidence' has no bearing on the accuracy of the Bible. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the lab references if I were you, these guys have read a book and they just presume that everything in it is correct, they beleive it because their heroes say so. I don't know if it is funny or sad. Brian.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I have a question to pose in general concerniong the chariot wheel. Is there a picture anywhere showing the chariot wheel after they removed the coral that would show us a better resolution of this conflict? I know there's just too much to remember in all this, but it's been explained several times that after the coral had formed the wood would've rotted away, unless the wheel had been buried in the sand and relatively recently eroded to the bottom surface. It's not like under the coral there's this pristine wood wheel. The hard coral shell is likely all that remains. The gold gilted one, of course was not coral encrusted since the coral would not cling to it.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
EVIDENCE ITEM 1: What is it?
A piece of coral shaped like a wheel. 1)WHICH LAB CONDUCTED INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION?
N/A 2)WHEN WAS THIS CONDUCTED?
N/A 3)WHAT TESTS WERE PERFORMED?
N/A 4)WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF 3?
N/A 5) WHERE IS THE DOCUMENTATION AROUND THE VERIFICATION PROCESS? AVAILABLE?
N/A
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JimSDA Inactive Member |
John, it's way too soon to know which channel Moller's 30-minute TV show will be on (or the 3 full hour shows that Lysimachus posted about)-- when the time arrives, we will try to announce on our websites. One good way to be able to hear about it is to sign up for the Anchor Stone e-mail newsletter -- at Anchor Stone International - Ron Wyatt, Noah's Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, Red Sea Crossing, Ark of the Covenant
This message has been edited by JimSDA, 08-08-2004 10:29 AM
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Surely it has to be
Brian.
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JimSDA Inactive Member |
"What do you mean Moller has a 30 min. TV program coming out? It clearly says 3hr/3part. Are you talking about something else I haven't heard of?"
It may have been that I heard about "an earlier plan" that was later expanded to be 3 full hour shows -- thanks for posting that new link, I hadn't seen that page before! It's GREAT news!
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
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