"The Exodus Revealed" Video II

Unfortunately, the name of this archaeologist was not given. I will email Bill Fry and see if he knows. However, we do know that he was from Riyadh University. Read what he told Ron about the Bulls:Page not found - Anchor Stone InternationalAlso, read what 4 doctors and some authors have to say about Jebel Al Lawz and Mt. Sinai" on PAX Television:Mount Sinai Featured on PAX Television

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~Lysimachus

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So you will withdraw that claim until you can support it?

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No I will not. Because I believe Ron Wyatt, and I know he was an honest man. I don't play by your rules.

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sigh... remember how we discussed DVD and videos? How they are not evidence? Now apply this concept to a TV show.....

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What does this have to do with anything? I never told you to download any video. Those are QUOTES! Do you know what "quotes" are? Apparently not. The words of those doctors are right there for you to read, whether it said in a video or not. So there

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~Lysimachus

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so let's see if we get this right:
some coral that resembles some wheels - no tests performed (various reasons given Muslims hate jews etc..).

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An actual wheel that was taken for examination but was lost and an examinator who does not seem to have made any written notes. In addition, none of the team seem to have taken any photos of the wheel.

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A "burnt" mountain top that is "burnt" depending on your photos and the angle that you took the pictures from (Geological records?)

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A split rock - difference from a normal rock in some way we can't seem to define.

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Some rock drawings that tell a different picture if you take a picture of the whole rock.

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Various "expert" statements by people we can't seem to name.

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A matter of fact, some of these wheels were tested by credentialed scientist. His name is Dr. Lennart Moller from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm Sweden. He specializes in studying coral structures and is able to identify whether they were once a chariot wheel. Watch is sketches on the video clip---you will see they are truly amazing. Also, the "table like structure" is clearly an axel with 2 chariot wheels on either end. Many of these objects that he analyzed under the water tested positive with a metal detector. He is a qualified scientist, whether you want to accept it or not.And even if another qualified archaeologist came in, you would start questioning his credentials, and so on. It'll go on forever Charles...can't you see? It's all rotten bias against the Bible...not objective in the least. None of you here (besides Myself, Hydarnes, Buzsaw, JimSDA, Arkeologist, and John Williams) have been objective. NOT in the LEAST!

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~Lysimachus

jar,

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The problem is that once again, you do not understand evidence. Let me try to explain. The images that I included are from those you (supporters of the validity of the Exodus Video have published). They are from the group that show things in context.

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In response you pull out some pictures taken out of context. You intentionally smudge out the drawings around the ones of interest to you.

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You are assuming. That was a screenshot from a DVD. The DVD did not take out the side pictures from the beginning. It showed the whole thing, then focused on that particular bull so that the viewer could see the similarities between it and the one in Egypt. Simple as that.

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Frankly, that is not how evidence is gathered but rather refered to as suppressing evidence.

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We do not look at data and interpret it alone, as many scientists and yourself try to do. We look at one particular piece of data, and then we look at the surrounding data to see if it fits. If we can clearly see a chain of event, we consider it evidence on a grand whole. This concept has been the hardest one I have ever had to get through to people. It’s called narrow mindedyou focus in with microscopic eyes, but yet miss ALL the surrounding data that ALL points Jebel Al Lawz to be Mt. Sinai. But yet you’re stuck on one tiny little petraglyph. You just don’t know how silly that looks.

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The image that you include happens to be one that I also included. In the three pictures I posted, the top two are closeups of sections of the rock while the third was a shot of the rock itself. The image you posted is located on the lower right quadrant of the rock in picture three.

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So?Things need to be bloated up a bit to get things through to your cabesa. I don’t believe you really noticed that particular petraglyph that well before. You all of a sudden noticed it after, and then come to me pretending like you were well aware of its style, and how it has been connected with the Egyptian version. I have a hard time buying that you were aware of thisand just because there may be hunters surrounding doesn’t suppress our theory in the slightest. The Hebrews were a wondering peoplewho most likely did hunt. If they did not hunt, they could have been drawing those images in rebellion to God, since remember how they would cry to Moses how they wanted meat? God gave the Israelites specific rules of how to eat meat. The Golden Calf worshipping revolved around HEAVY rebellion against God. It is not surprising to see all sort of images of the mixed with the Egyptian bulls.

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What you call a clear image of an individual holding the bull, has been doctored, modified. If you will look at the original you will see that there is more to the human figure that was brushed out to make it look like only one drawing when on the rock itself you can see it is part of a montage. There are also human figures immediately behind the critter, an antelope type critter, a camel near the top, an Ibex like crtter in front of the bull and an extention, most likely phallic in nature attached to the human you say is holding up the bull.

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Once again, so? All this plays in quite well with our theory. I’m glad you pointed this stuff out to meit only confirms this was a wondering group of nomads called Hebrews or Israelites.

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You refute my post by a classic attempt to misdirect attention, smoke and mirrors. If that was intentional it is dishonest and if it is not intentional, then I fear you are incapable of ever understanding how knowledge is aquired.

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I see you like to steel others’ phrases. You didn’t use the phrase smoke and mirrors until after Hydarnes used it. Don’t go trying to use something on me that wasn’t original. But, if you feel I am doing this, then please educate me. I am incapable of knowing how I am doing this.

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I might also remind you that the Saudi Archaeologist that investigated this area stated CLEARLY that "these are DISTINCTLY Egyptian and these engraving exist no other place in Saudi Arabia"--yes, that is just what they said. And guess what jar? They know more about their country than YOU! So who should I trust? You who is looking at pictures? or the Saudi Archaeologists who clearly said this?

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Again, this is mere assertion and an appeal to authority. Since I posted similar drawings from other areas, that statement too must be questioned. You folk have never documented what this unnamed Saudi Archaeologists was or the statement.
In addition, there is almost no similarities. There is an absolute difference in style, technique and sophistication between rock art from 3000 BCE and the Egyptian art of 1400 BCE. I have posted pictures to show that difference but you can also see it in the example that you used.

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And what have you produced? We have provided AT LEAST something. It may not be the greatest, but you seem more confident that you are capable of disproving it than I am at proving it. How can this be if you yourself cannot produce evidence against it? You should be trying to see what you can do to HELP me disprove and approve it. But no, your only goal is to try and disprove it.

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First, you claim it is an ALTAR. An altar dedicated to the sacrifice and worship of calves. If so, you would find only drawings of calves. That is not the case.

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You are assuming this on baseless ground. There does not just have to be calf inscriptions. There are millions of people here. All one single person needs to do is pick up a stone and start scratching. The bulls are the primary figures, but so what if they add anything else. The Hebrews were not bound to the rules of Egypt, so they could basically do whatever they please.

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And no, the fleeing folk found food from heaven. It was called Mana.

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This plays right into their murmurings and complaints regarding meat. This was a time they were in direct rebellion against God, and it is not surprising for them to draw inscriptions of them hunting animalsjust what they wanted to do. This sort of spirit was later demonstrated by them with the quail. They demanded quail, so finally God gave it to them. Because of their lusts for flesh, God decided to teach them a lesson for not trusting Him with the manna, so He let them, and they got sick.

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I stand by my description and frankly, not only do you have no evidence, you have once again shown that the supporters of the video are willing to cheat and lie, to modify evidence to support their commercial venture.
Here is your example.

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You think I care about what your stance is? All the opinions in the world don’t make a dent on facts. Whether I present the evidence or not, it stands of alone to testify of itself. And once again you are assuming about the inscriptions. ALL those bulls, animals, hunters, etc. were shown in the video. When the video was trying to make a comparison, it simply highlighted that section so you can focus on it. Aren’t all sophisticated presentations done like that? When someone wants their audience to focus in on something, they don’t just show a whole image and expect everyone to be looking at the same section. You have to manually highlight it. That’s no different than saying the Olympics are dishonest because they focus in on the athletes and don’t show the people as much.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 08-12-2004 08:22 PMThis message has been edited by Lysimachus, 08-12-2004 08:23 PM

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~Lysimachus

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Right and his area of expertise is?

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Regardless, he is trained in the field of marine biology. He works in a large university, and works with many other experienced scientists. He knows what he is doing, don't worry. I trust him, and you should to. I don't know of any other credentialed scientists that accuse this man of not being qualified. Do you?

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Can he?

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You better believe he can. He's an intelligent man.

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Amazing in what sense? Amazing sketches? That is all they all - drawings on a video - they provide nothing.

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So what do you do Charles when there is a CONSISTENT pattern of "round" structures, with axels and other debris? There is a consistent pattern of these finds scattered over a wide area, from the west side (the coast of the Sinai peninsula) to the east side (the coast of the north west Saudi-Arabia) and imply a very extensive disaster, of which there is a length of apprxoimately 14 km and a width of approximately 5 km, the total area covering some 70 km2. I have a number of clear photographs right here in my book that shows both "broken rims" and "round rims" in virtually every single photo--ones that I haven't even posted. It's all over Charles....one right after another all across the Gulf on the sandbar.Also, did you know that Ron Wyatt originally thought this could be the crossing site BEFORE he went diving? Yes Charles...the chariot wheels and parts were only a cherry on top to this grand puzzle. We are now learning more and more everyday as we enter the 21st century that there indeed is a truly loving God that was in control of all things.

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~Lysimachus

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You know Lys, others here can correct me if I'm wrong, but the infamous janitor from the Karolinska Institute could be credible if he followed the scientific method, documented everything possible concerning his finds, and submitted his information to peer reviewed publications.

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It is because you continue to hero worship Moller and his "credentials" that you put these credentials up for critique. It does not matter who does the work if the work is done correctly. It does not matter what the credentials of the worker are if he does slip-shod work.

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But how do you know he hasn't put it up for peer review? His endeavors in this field is relatively new. He is letting other scientists in on this and sharing their thoughts. Professor Ken Kitchen, for example, is not for Moller. Yet Moller has him interviewed on his upcoming 3hr/3part series. He is letting anyone say anything they can--and states that it is open for interpretation. Implying that it is open for interpretation is allowing peer review. Have I heard one good credentialed scientist dispute his book yet? Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure there has been though.His book is not just a bunch of "hoo cha cha". One secular college was even considering using his book as a student text book, but the college was was denied funding from the state for the curriculum expansion.My point is, the book is starting to get heard loud and clear. It has even been advertized nation wide in Biblical Archaeology Review (BAR) magazine: Page not found - Anchor Stone International

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~Lysimachus

[quote]My rules? unless I am much mistaken it's the rule of this forum, you make a big assumption you need to back it with something. Do you think "Ron was honest" is a particuarly good answer?[quote] And guess what? I have backed it up with something. Go back and look at all the links to my posts. Don't pretend I haven't, because I have. I'm through with your nonesense, and I'm not going to put up with your stupidity ANY MORE. You here me? And no, I'm not withdrawing because I've done just that. Support.

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you also try to use those "experts" in an appeal to authority to silence both jar (post 475):

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How so? I also provided my opinions in conjunction with what authorities have said. You're just playing mind games with me, and it isn't appreciated. Are you a psychologists? Because obviously, your words just damper ones spirit, not prove them wrong.

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The rules of this forum are clear:

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Make your points by providing supporting evidence and/or argument. Avoid bare assertions. Because it is often not possible to tell which points will prove controversial, it is acceptable to wait until a point is challenged before supporting it.

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I am making that challenge - provide names or withdraw the claim.

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Perhaps the archaeologist would not reveal his name for identity purposes? However, he did reveal he was one from Riyadh University, and I feel that is good enough. There is nothing wrong with claiming an archaeologist said something--even if he does not reveal his name.And by the way, why do you ignore Hydarnes' chain in Post#500? It means nothing to you, eh?Keep it up Charles...keep it up. Keep thinking you're heading in the right direction.

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~Lysimachus

PaulK

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To be fair they are named in the link
Dr. Roy Knutsen "Emeritus Bible Professor" at Northwestern College - apparently a small private Bible college in St. Paul.

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Dr. B Michael Blaine "Archaeologist/Curator The Near East Museum" - which "The Near East Musueum" is not said, but his comments seem at odds with what I've read. (Finkelstein argues quite convincingly that the placenames best fit the situation of the 11th Century). I'd ask Brian to look it over but it seems clear to me that he is arguing as a religious apologist rather than an unbiased expert (calling Exodus "an eyewitness account" is rather a giveaway).

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Dr Bryant Wood - another apologist. Again, I'd ask Brian but his reports from Jericho have come in for heavy criticism.

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Dr. Robert Siblerud an Environmental Physiologist and apparently a real crank. He was co-founder of this defunct organisation http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE2.html

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Just read the description of this book:
http://www.wexclub.com/AncientScience/pages/inbg.html

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SEE! I knew it PaulK...I knew it. Whenever we provide you with names, then you revert to questioning everything about them, and whether they should be taken seriously. And GIVE ME A BREAK about "unbiased expert"....There are scientists who are Pro Creation, and Pro Evolution. What do you think the scientists that are Pro Creation are going to do? Try and prove creation. And Pro Evolutionists? Try and prove evolution!Like Hydarnes says "SHEER POPPYCOCK!". Your reasoning is putrefying.Once again, vainless attempts to try and disprove the Bible. Face it, you guys don't want a God involved with your lives---that's the only reason you're fighting all of this so hard. The ONLY reason. Maybe not outwardly, but deep inside it is.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 08-12-2004 09:14 PM

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~Lysimachus

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OK - it's quite clear what is occuring here - they have no evidence -none is forth-coming.

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They are just waiting till we get sick of asking and give up - they will then claim to have answered all our questions.

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How is any debate intended to occur when they refuse to either supply the names of people supporting their evidence or withdrawn such claims.

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Think what you like Charles. It doesn't matter to me anymore.

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~Lysimachus

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And you actually believe this statement? There is, as Charles suggests no hope whatsoever then. You are delusional.

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Try to think how frustrating it might be if you were trying to prove something, and an archaeologist came along and supported your claim. But then he dissapears before he reveals his name. Wouldn't you at least want to tell others that you know an archaeologist said this, but yet you couldn't find out his name? Put yourself in these shoes---If you guys only knew what Ron went through...he was ready to pull out his hair because it was so difficult to keep things organized...people made it very hard for him.You guys don't have the faintest clue of what I'm really trying to emphasize...so I'll just leave it at that.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 08-12-2004 09:23 PM

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~Lysimachus