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Author Topic:   Does radio-carbon dating disprove evolution?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 308 (339114)
08-10-2006 11:55 PM


Ok, I know little about radiocarbon dating, but this one site claims:
One of the ways to disprove evolutionary time scales is using radiometry. (Darwin's 'Origin of Species' was published in 1859, a century before radiocarbon dating was discovered) Even though many archaeologists have accepted radiocarbon dating as a good technique to determine the age of fossils, there are still some who do not accept this technique as it gives results that completely contradict their beliefs.
Every book on human evolution still maintain that rhodesian man (homo rhodesiensis) existed about 200000 years ago. Radiocarbon dating yielded an age of roughly 10000 years. (Science Vol 144, pg 1000) This implies that this fossil is the remains of someone who died because of the great flood. In that same article, the authors wrote, "There is no known natural mechanism by which collagen (organic carbon in bone) may be altered to yield a false age." (Science Vol 144, pg 999)
In the summer of 1931, Gustav Riek excavated a newly discovered archaeological site in a small cave in southwestern Germany called Vogelherd. He and his team recovered several hominid bones and remarkable artifacts, such as a carved ivory horse, mammoth and bison, which he dated to the Aurignacian (35000 years ago). These were recently carbon dated to be between 3,900 to 5,000 years old. (Refer Geotimes, 2004 September)
Another example is coal. According to the geologic column, it takes several hundred million years for coal to form. Coal samples yield a radiocarbon age of only several thousand years.
Even today, when you hear someone saying that they have found a dinosaur fossil 100 million years old, it is not because of radiocarbon dating, but simply because the geologic column says that dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. Radiocarbon dating on dinosaurs have yielded dates more than 10000 years. (Refer BlackSheepBistro.com is for sale | HugeDomains)
If evolutionists are right in maintaining that life started a few billion years ago, 99% of fossils would yield a radiocarbon date of more than 10000 years. But according to radiocarbon databases, more than 90% of fossils have an age less than 10000 years. This is in spite of the fact that we have instruments that can measure ages up to 70000 bp. (Refer The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404))
http://www.geocities.com/peaceharris/c14/
What's the stock evo answer to this? anyone know?
And any creationists or IDers have an opinion on this?
Here it appears dinosaurs are dated in 4 lab testings of the same material to be at most something like 25K years old.
Bone fragments from the 30 ft. long Acrocanthosaurus dinosaur, excavated by members of CEM of Glen Rose TX and CRSEF of Columbus OH (Carl Baugh, Collector), were subjected to the radiocarbon dating process at three different laboratories. Again this was an attempt to falsify the fossil foot print evidence and the successful radiocarbon dating of carbonized wood from the cretaceous period. Table 3 lists these dates and for those of four other samples from four separate excavations of other dinosaurs; three came from the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh PA. As you will note the dates ranged from about 9,890 to 36,500 radiocarbon years (Beta system) before the present (B.P.).
The expensive accelerated mass spectrometer (AMS) gave the most reproducible dates namely 23,760 +/-270 B.P. at the prestigious University of Arizona National Academy of Science facilities and 25,750 +/-280 at an overseas AMS Lab; the sample at the former was surface scrapings with a carbon content of 3.5% and the latter was a gaseous sample from the crushing of about 180 grams of bone fragments.
Other fragments were dated by a third laboratory using the beta counter; dates of 32,400 and 36,500 were obtained. These along with 39,500 B.P. for dinosaur coprolyte found buried with Acrocanthosaurus were some 7,000 or so years older than the dates obtained with the highly respected AMS. It is important to note that the 32,400 B.P. date was obtained on the same sample that was dated overseas on the more sensitive AMS system which gave a date of 25,750 +/-280 years B.P. A sample of the same carbon dioxide gas was used in both systems with the 7,000 years younger date being obtained on the AMS.
Because the AMS appears to be the choice of radiocarbon dating experts today; and, because the AMS is assigned very low +/-deviations we tend to believe the lower dates as true values for the radiocarbon dating process. But, of course, not the true dates. The carbon dating assumptions are thought to give radiocarbon dates that are still too high based on the discoveries of Dr. Libby (5), and interpretations of Whitelaw (6) and Aardsma (11) and others. The true dates are still elusive. However, reducing the dinosaur age by 1,000 times is no small discovery.
BlackSheepBistro.com is for sale | HugeDomains
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 34 of 308 (339553)
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


the usual idiocy from some evos
Reading through a page and a half, I feel compelled to point out that although a few here have tried a substantive response, a good portion, such as PaulK's posts, are the usual evo idiocy so typical, attacking the people and not the argument, and the constant trying to take the topic off-topic to address the ToE as a whole, and so I want to make a quick comment there.
First, the hysteria of some of your comments just makes someone that has for over 20 years watched and studied this debate, just suggest to me the creationists are probably right. I remember meeting this same hysteria back in the 80s when I suggested that Haeckel's work was forged and his conclusions phoney. The evos I would meet would react with similar emotionalism, and it wasn't really into after 1997 that we began to see some evos admit to the facts that they were wrong.
Secondly, I said in my opening post that I don't know much about carbon-dating, and those of you that have bothered to read my posts know I have never questioned that the earth was old. I do think there is some evidence of dinosaurs remaining coexisting with humans, but that doesn't really mean I think the earth is young. it's not an issue I have delved into.
Third, the fossil record and living biota are, imo, all the evidence you need to fully discount current, mainstream evolutionist models. Maybe someone's ideas like JAD's prescribed theory have merit as he at least tried to honestly deal with the facts.
With that being said, all I wanted was the stock evo answers. Unfortunately, thus far there is little substantiation for those answers and a great deal of mudslinging and diverting to a side topic within the OP, on cold fusion. I recognize the YECers have a theory on tweaking carbon-dating, and thus far judging by the paltry responses, I tend to think they may be correct, but honestly, whether the dinosaur bones are dated to 35K years or 5K years, either dating is somewhat devastating, if accurate, for evolutionist dating schemes, and so let's try to keep the discussion to that.
Once again, realize dating methods is not an area I have been interested in, nor studied a lot of, but it sure seems to me you guys jump on every dating method that you prefer, and reject dating methods you don't like. My experience with watching how evos handle data suggests this is not an objective process within the evolutionist community, but this sort of selective acceptance of data is par for the course for you guys.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Jazzns, posted 08-12-2006 4:27 PM randman has replied
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 08-12-2006 6:02 PM randman has not replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 308 (339578)
08-12-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NosyNed
08-12-2006 3:32 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
I see absolutely nothing substantive in that post. I have learned it's a waste of time showing PaulK where he is wrong so I ignored the post. If you want to do the research, you can see the errors soon enough for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 40 of 308 (339582)
08-12-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jazzns
08-12-2006 4:27 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
So bones are inorganic?
In our opinion the reason that dinosaur bones can be radiocarbon dated is so simple that every museum curator, paleontologist, and geologist in the world should be delighted with the wealth of information sitting in museum basements. The reason is: many if not most dinosaur bones contain a coating of black-to-brown carbon film that penetrates the laminar structure of the bone surfaces; we have detected 2 to 7 percent carbon in 12 separate dinosaurs (fragments). There was no shellac on any of the bone fragments we studied; some were freshly excavated in the 80's; some were from the early 19th century and, five of course, as noted above, were dated between 9,890 and 25,750 years B.P.
Other paleontologists have noted that dinosaur bones as a rule are "carbonized on the surface and throughout the lamellar outer layers" (12). "Kerogenous hydrocarbons" are often present in the central pores and Haversian canals according to the same source. When a cross section of an Acrocanthosaurus bone fragment was sectioned and mounted metallographically in 1989 we also noted that the pores were black which we assumed to be carbonized material. Although there is little or no collagen in the bones as observed by radiocarbon dating labs the organic matter present in the bones are obviously biogenic in nature; that is: the source of the carbon is the dinosaur tissue and other organic matter buried with it.
BlackSheepBistro.com is for sale | HugeDomains
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jazzns, posted 08-12-2006 4:27 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 42 of 308 (339604)
08-12-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jazzns
08-12-2006 5:16 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
You do realize they were dating fossils of bones that contain carbonization. I assumed your question related to the thread, but perhaps not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jazzns, posted 08-12-2006 5:16 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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