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Author Topic:   Adam was created on the 3rd day
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 81 of 233 (396426)
04-19-2007 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:06 AM


Re: YES incorrectly read! lol
juraikken writes:
no they were not hibernating, but its odd tho if its the act of creation they why is everything happening ONLY in teh garden of Eden? what happened to the rest of the word?
The garden of Eden is the focus in Genesis 2 and where God was doing His creating. The plants and animals created in the garden spread out to cover the rest of the world just as man did.
so basically he formed, man, woman, grass, animals, and the garden of eden all in one day? hmm good division seeing as how it takes one day to divide teh firmament from the waters....
No, the garden of Eden covers 3 days. Man and grass on the 3rd day, animals and woman on the 6th day. So Adam was alone (with the grass and trees) for 3 days while God was creating elsewhere on the 4th and 5th days.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
wait wait wait, adam went a day without sunlight? what the heck? how could any tree be pleasing to the eye if he cant even see past his nose?
It was Eve that saw the tree pleasing and that was on the 6th day.
first you tell me the second vessel IS Christ and nwo you tell me they are born again people IN christ?
Either or, Christ and the born again are One in nature as the second vessel. Christ is the head while we are the body.
do you not believe in Trinity? Father, Son, Holy Ghost? if the trinity is true then all three of them SHOULD be there are the SAME time,
Yes I do believe in the Trinity. Jesus is the image of God, and the man created in the image of God on the 6th day is IN Christ.
so does that mean that They make Jesus again? but you cant make another Jesus! he was already THERE with God even before the beginning of the world, there is no second Adam, both accounts are about ONE Adam
Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:06 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 83 of 233 (396578)
04-20-2007 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
04-20-2007 9:53 PM


Re: Re-3rd day
You mean God could only do half a job. He was not able to speak all into existence at once? What kind of a God do you have?
The kind of God I have created the world in 6 days, not all at once.
Are we having a nice discussion here or are we starting out with insults?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 9:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2007 12:11 AM graft2vine has not replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 85 of 233 (396933)
04-23-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
04-20-2007 9:53 PM


Re: Re-3rd day
I was asking how small was your God.
A Spirit cannot be measured in terms of size. He is the God of the Bible, Creator of Heaven and Earth, the God whom or Lord and Savior Jesus Christ prayed to as his Father, My God and your God.
Water came up from ground and watered the face of the earth.
That is called rain.
How do you get rain it did not rain for at least 1700 years.
Genesis 2:6
How do you get to this summation from Genesis 2:8?
Would you please explain how you can sum up these things from the fore going verses you have alluded to?
God makes Adam on the 3rd day, followed by the vegetation. God places him in the garden. Then God makes fish and animals on the 5th and 6th day. God brings them to Adam so he could name them. Then God makes man into the image of God.
God makes Adam on the 3rd day, followed by the vegetation. (Gen 2:7-2:9 see also Gen 1:11-1:13 for the corresponding day in which the vegetation was brought forth)
God places him in the garden. (Gen 2:8)
Then God makes fish and animals on the 5th and 6th day. (Gen 1:20-1:25) (Gen 2:19)
God brings them to Adam so he could name them. (Gen 2:19-2:20)
Then God makes man into the image of God. (Gen 1:26-1:27) (Gen 2:21-Gen 3:22)
Note: I can't pin point exactly when Adam was made in the image of God, but Genesis 3 gives us a clue.
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The eating from the tree of knowledge represents the offence of the Law, and is the beginning of the process of being made in God's image.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now the Tree of Life comes by way of Jesus Christ. It is through becoming one with Christ that we are made one body, in the image of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 9:53 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 1:37 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 87 of 233 (396961)
04-23-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
04-23-2007 1:37 PM


Re: Re-3rd day
Hi Ringo, How you doing?
ringo writes:
There is no way to reconcile the stories except by torturing them both, like you do.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
Peace to you Brother!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 1:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 4:40 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 89 of 233 (396980)
04-23-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
04-23-2007 4:40 PM


ringo writes:
Well, I haven't been struck blind yet, which is why I repsonded to your post.
Bottom line: Genesis 1 clearly states that man (Hebrew: adam) was created on the sixth day, not the third. Nothing you have said changes that.
Indeed. And I don't intend to change that fact. Hmmm... Lets pick this up in post 73 where I explain that there are two creations of Adam. Like to hear your thoughts. http://EvC Forum: Adam was created on the 3rd day -->EvC Forum: Adam was created on the 3rd day
The only good thing that can be said for your argument is that you twist both equally.
It is a delicate balance, no twisting though ...except perhaps from traditional thought.
Edited by graft2vine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 4:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 7:57 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 91 of 233 (397022)
04-23-2007 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
04-23-2007 7:57 PM


ringo writes:
That's your basic error right there. No, it doesn't say they were created twice.
That was what I was asking Juraikken. I'm not saying that plants and animals were created twice.
Neither order is central to the story and neither order comes close to the known scientific order.
The order is important sence we are dealing with Biblical accuracy. For you it may not be pertinent or shake your faith, but for an unbeliever it might make the difference.
The scientific order is another matter. The Bible must agree with itself before it can agree or disagree with science.
Your New Testament references - Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians and Peter - are irrelevant. You can't use the New Testament to rewrite the Old.
They are both part of the same Bible. The New is the Old revealed and the Old is the New concealed. If I can't refer to the New then you got me tied down with your lasso.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 7:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 10:52 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 93 of 233 (397149)
04-24-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
04-23-2007 10:52 PM


ringo writes:
Nobody can look at the Bible thoroughly and honestly and conclude that it's historically or scientifically accurate. If anybody's faith depends on the lie of inerrancy, it's a very weak faith indeed. They're better off without it.
Inerrancy is not a lie. To believe the Bible this day and age with all the "contradictions" going around I think requires strong faith. To the skeptic seeing is believing, to the weak of faith (or blind faith) believing is without seeing, to the strong of faith believing is seeing. While faith does come when we are still in the dark, we must enter into the light where things are revealed that were kept hidden in the darkness.
And of course, the Bible doesn't agree with itself, right in the first two chapters. You'd almost think the authors had put up a big sign saying, "Don't take this literally."
The Bible does not require you to take it literally. It is a spiritual book. Literal is not a requirement for it to be accurate.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense to use The Catcher in the Rye to explain Treasure Island or to use Fahrenheit 451 to explain Don Quixote.
I think books in a series would be a more fair comparison.
Rule of thumb: If your interpretation doesn't make sense on its own, other books won't prop it up, they'll just weigh it down.
Unless its the Authors intent to keep things hidden from the wise and reveal them to babes. We must convert and become as little children (have a little blind faith) before we can grow in the Lord and seek out the deeper truths of the Word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 10:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 04-24-2007 6:34 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 95 of 233 (397280)
04-25-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
04-24-2007 6:34 PM


ringo writes:
Then why insist on taking the order of creation literally? Why, especially, when there are two obviously conflicting versions?
While a spiritual book, the spirit reflects the natural order. Also spirit must line up with spirit. Otherwise, you not only cant take it literally, but how can you believe the Spirit?
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Unless its the Authors intent to keep things hidden from the wise and reveal them to babes.
What a silly notion. What makes you privy to the authors' intentions?
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Any defense of your OP beyond a general descent into inerrancy?
Not really... other than the 7 pages following it.
Edited by graft2vine, : No reason given.
Edited by graft2vine, : added scripture reference

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 04-24-2007 6:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 11:28 AM graft2vine has replied
 Message 98 by highskies, posted 04-25-2007 11:55 AM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 97 of 233 (397291)
04-25-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
04-25-2007 11:28 AM


ringo writes:
You conveniently neglected the context:
quote:
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Thought I'd save your skin.
Again, what Jesus says is Spirit. It's application can extend to more than just the context. If everything was just about context, the Bible would be completely irrelevant today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 11:28 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 12:37 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 102 of 233 (397323)
04-25-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
04-25-2007 12:37 PM


ringo writes:
So, are you deliberately avoiding the question?
How can you blatantly contradict what the Bible says? Man was created on the sixth day.
I am not avoiding your question, but have answered you twice. See my responses in posts 37 and 89.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 12:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 2:30 PM graft2vine has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 104 of 233 (397379)
04-25-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by highskies
04-25-2007 11:55 AM


tenses
High Skies,
Greetings!
highskies writes:
notice in Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:.
Now look at Gen 2:5 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This is when God made man in Gen 1:26
Since you have been reading my thread I assume you know that I am saying there are two creations of Adam (the first Adam and the last Adam). So, can you show me that the Adam in Gen 2:7 made of the earth is the same Adam as in Gen 1:26 made in the image of God?
Now notice in Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
Now look at Gen 2:21-24 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
This is when Gen 1:27 takes place in Gen Ch 2.
Same thing here. The woman in Gen 2 is not said to be made in the image of God, but after man "bone of my bone" "flesh of my flesh" "taken out of man".
As per context, we have to discern when the author is speaking in the present, past or future tense.
The tense is determined in the Hebrew within Genesis 2. We don't need to go back to Genesis 1 to determine the tense.
It appears that God forms the man then plants a garden. But is this really what the author is saying?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
"formed" tense is imperfect. Imperfect refers to an incomplete action.
"breathed" imperfect.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
"planted" imperfect
"he put" imperfect
"he had formed" tense is perfect. The perfect tense refers to a completed action in the past.
From this we can see that the action is taking place as God says it. The tense is imperfect from the creation of Adam in Gen 2:7 through the creation of the Garden in Gen 2:8, then switches to the perfect tense with "he had formed" refering back to Adam that was completed in the previous verse. Based on the tenses, Adam was created before the Garden and then placed in the Garden after its completion.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
"to grow" imperfect. We are back to the imperfect tense. Adam was made first, then the Garden planted, Adam placed in the Garden, now the Garden starts to grow.
"that is pleasant" tense is Participle. Corresponds to the English verb "to be" with the present participle. May be present, past or future time.
The same way with the animals in ch 2.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
"formed" imperfect
"brought" imperfect
"what he would call" imperfect
"called" imperfect

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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 105 of 233 (397417)
04-25-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by graft2vine
04-25-2007 6:01 PM


Re: tenses
So you don't take my word for it, this is from a wikipedia article that explains the Hebrew tenses (aspects) pretty well:
quote:
Biblical Hebrew had only two aspects (not tenses). The perfect aspect was used for completed actions, and generally implies past time. The imperfect aspect was used for uncompleted actions, and thus could imply present or future time. Modern Hebrew uses the participle for the present time and reserves the imperfect for future time. The Hebrew imperfect is noteworthy for having not only suffixes but also a syllable added at the beginning of the stem, and thus is often called the prefix conjugation.
Imperfect - Wikipedia

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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 106 of 233 (397422)
04-25-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
04-25-2007 2:30 PM


ringo writes:
(As I have suggested earlier, the New Testament first/last Adam makes a nice sermon, but it's strictly after-the-fact. It was never meant to "explain" the original story. In any case, the "last Adam" doesn't refer to Genesis at all.)
That is your assertion thst the New Testament doesn't explain the creation story. Where did the last Adam come from? He had to be created at some point... when was he created? Why not during the creation in Genesis along with everything else that was created? God said the creation was finished on the sixth day and then He rested on the seventh.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
The heavens and the earth were completed and everything that is in them. ...except for the second Adam???

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 Message 103 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 2:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 10:19 PM graft2vine has replied
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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 119 of 233 (399748)
05-07-2007 6:05 PM


All,
I have not had time to be here to answer all your questions recently, but plan to do so. For now I would like to attempt to again answer the prevailing question of why Adam is not mentioned as being created on the 3rd day in Genesis 1:
The creation of man (on the 3rd day) is a detail that is left out of Genesis 1 maybe for poetic purpose and/or keep it within a limited scope. God can't mention man being created on both the 3rd and 6th days without causing confusion if enough detail and explaination is not put into it. That is not within the scope of Genesis 1 which is intended as a very brief summary of the entire creation. Genesis 2 is devoted to man.
Make sense? Anything wrong with this logic?

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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 144 of 233 (400929)
05-17-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by cmettsSC
05-16-2007 8:21 PM


Re: image and likeness
Hi Cmetts,
Small world isn't it?
I have had this thread here close to a year, and its still gaining in popularity. Have had some challenging feedback, so you might find it enjoyable to read through it as PD suggested.
To answer you in brief though -- Nowhere does it say in the Bible that Adam was created on the third day. If it said it clearly it would be a widely held view. As it is, I only know of 2 people on the planet that believe it... myself and one other person I have shared it with.
I agree the Bible is clear that man was created on the sixth day in the image of God. Adam being created in the likeness of God in Gen 2 is not the same creation. From likeness to image is a progression.
To your question about other early writings: God did not reveal everything to the early church, but there is hidden manna that He choses to reveal in His own time and purpose.
In the First book of Adam and Eve, the account begins with:
"ON the third day, God planted the garden in the east of the earth,"
That at least makes it clear that the Garden was planted on the third day. In Genesis 2 it is clear that Adam was created before the Garden:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
"had formed" is in the perfect tense, indicating an already completed action from verse 7.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by cmettsSC, posted 05-16-2007 8:21 PM cmettsSC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by cmettsSC, posted 05-18-2007 8:44 PM graft2vine has replied

  
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