Why did God forgive our sins?

This is a complete dodge and you know it. What are they talking about if Matt 7:13-14 is not talking about the narrow gate to salvation and the wide road to destruction? Another complete dodge. Those passages refer to destruction of those that do not pass through the narrow gate. Are you trying to say that there is a third option besides Heaven and hell? It doesn't matter who Jesus was speaking to in Matt 7:13-14. The message that he delivered in this scripture is clear. The way through to Heaven is a narrow gate and few shall pass through it. So, yes, Jesus IS talking about how many will make it to heaven and how many won't and the message is perfectly crystal clear. Few will make it into Heaven. So you do agree with me. Few will find the narrow way. I already have. Several times now and I will not retract it. Matthew 7:13-14 is perfectly clear and makes my point regardless of who Jesus was speaking to when he said it.In a previous post I asked you to produce the scripture that says that there WILL be more in heaven than there will be in hell. You have not done this and your calculations and assumptions about babies do not count. Quote the scripture that supports your position or accept the fact that Matthew 7:13-14 supports mine.Glad to help you with your journey. I have also learned quite a bit through our exchanges.Cheers,
--Caldron68

I'm sorry I did not quote your statement verbatim, but I thought what you were saying was perfectly clear. You're nit-picking details that don't matter. Does it really matter whether you were standing in a line or not? Doesn't standing in front of the Great White Throne conjure up images of Heaven?The point I was trying to make is still perfectly valid. Those that accept Jesus Christ as their Load and Savior will be accepted into Heaven, regardless of whether they were murderers or rapists on Earth or not.The hypocrisy still stands. People that are guilty of only one thing (not recognizing Jesus Christ as their Savior) will not be allowed into Heaven and the axe-murderer who accepts Jesus before he enters the gas chamber is allowed into Heaven.Cheers
--Caldron68

I am not dodging anything and you know it. How do you sleep at night? I'm not a great theologian either, but even I can look things up when necessary.So, given that we seem to have a difference of opinion on what Matt 7:13-14 is actually talking about, I did some research and found that he Blue Letter Bible includes the following translation from the NLT (New Living Testament) which states the following for Matt 7:13: "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. Here's the link: Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter BibleThis indicates that I am correct. Jesus (regardless of who he is talking to) is talking about the narrow gate through to salvation and the wide road that leads to destruction (hell). He is NOT having a pleasant conversation with the disciples about the narrow path to a good life that may or may not lead to heaven. The scripture is very clear and the meaning of what is being said is also very clear.Now, because the text is clear and the meaning is also clear we are left with only one thing: You are being deceitful and the last time I checked, this was still a sin. It's amazing that you can make a statement like this and still tell me that my interpretation (and Strong's Concordance) about Matt 7:13-14 is wrong.Is practicing the art of deceit a normal thing for you? NLT (New Living Testament) Matt 7:13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell [fn] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. Plainly contains the word hell. I suspect that now you're going to tell me that the NLT is the work of Satan and that I am wrong again. If you want to see a false prophet, all you have to do is look in a mirror. Because this is what you demand from everybody else. Evidently you do not need to defend yourself by using Scripture, you have the false work of others to support your claims, right? Yes it is and I have plainly posted the truth above. The interpretations of the Bible may be different, but they are not THAT different. Matt 7:13-14 is CLEARLY talking about the narrow gate through to Heaven and the wide road to destruction (hell).I'd really like to hear from Jaywill, Bertot and John 10:10 on this one. Do you guys think that Matt 7:13-14 is talking about the road to salvation or not? Yes, and here is my reference material: Summary of registered abortions worldwideThe estimated global monthly average number of abortions is 1,206,000. Now if we break a month (30 days) down into minutes we have this:60 minutes (hour) * 24 (hours in a day) * 30 (days in a month) we get 43200 minutes in a month. If we now divide the number of abortions per month by 43200 we get 27.91 abortions per minute. Way less that the 88 per minute that you are considering in your calculations.How about you share your sources for your data. Show me where you got your data and I will agree, otherwise I will assume that you are embellishing your data, just like you did for the number of abortions per minute. Not at all. He is. So what? Not at all. But he is also providing us with the knowledge of how to get through the narrow gate into the Kindom of God (Heaven). Nope. Destruction generally does mean utter destruction. The point is, and I am backed up on this by the NLT, that Jesus was clearly talking about the road to hell. Nope. I have provided the refutations that you have asked for.Cheers,
--Caldron68Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

Somehow I knew this would be your answer. No it doesn't. It's plain and simple. You are dodging the true meaning of the scripture and supplying your own interpretation. I've looked at literally hundreds of interpretations of Matt 7:13-14 and they all agree. Jesus is talking about the narrow gate through to eternal life and the last time I checked, that meant entry into Heaven.Can you find even one translation of Matt 7:13-14 that agrees with your particular interpretation? My guess is that you can't. Until you can, your personal interpretation of Matt 7:13-14 holds no water.You're perverting scripture to suit your personal needs and you know it. 2003! That was 6 years ago! The data that I presented you with is up to date and not 6 years old.Once again you are twisting information to suit your own needs. The current rate is approximately 27 abortions per minute. Your figure of 88 per minute is outdated and can no longer be used.My refutation of this issue STANDS. Then you Sir are a false prophet. You're a real chuckle ICANT. You can play completely dumb about scripture when it suits your needs, can't you.Yes, there will be a great number of souls in Heaven, but that great number is still the few referred to in Matt 7:13-14. There will be a great deal more that will find destruction and end up in hell. Which sounds awful familiar since you are creating your own interpretation of Matt 7:13-14 that is not supported by current Christian belief. Which contradicts what Jesus says in Matt 7:13-14. So, either Jesus is wrong or you are wrong. I have and you know it. You cannot find scripture that supports your own personal claim that more people will go to Heaven than hell. Scripture, on the other hand agrees with my central statement, that more people will go to hell than to Heaven and thus the system creates more misery than it does joy.Cheers,
--Caldron68

You most certainly do have an interpretation and it is counter to every other interpretation out there, including what is written in the NLT.Your assertion is that Jesus is telling the disciples how to live their lives and that the scripture (Matt 7:13-14) has nothing to do with the paths to salvation and destruction. Well, you Sir are dead wrong, so why should I trust you? You have given me no reason to trust you. Remember, trust is earned and you have not earned it. Not by my assertion. I gave you proof positive data that is current through 2008, which is much more accurate than the single data points that you have provided for the years 1999 and 2003. I did refute your numbers and that refutation stands. You're just not man enough to admit it. I have not rambled and I have certainly not constructed my own interpretation of the Bible like you have.And yes you do care about my thoughts because you know I am right and you lost this argument fair and square and you know it. I did not change anything about those verses. I pulled those verses from reliable, well documented sources, which are referenced by the Blue Letter Bible. You Sir are the one that has willfully re-interpreted scripture to suit your own selfish needs.You could prove to me that you are correct in your interpretation. I left the door wide open for that. But you won't, you know you're wrong and you can find no similar interpretation of Matt 7:13-14. Oh please. Who is not arguing in good faith? Certainly not me. I have simply provided you with scripture that backs up my statement, and the meaning of that scripture is verified through literally hundreds of Christian sources. I've also provide you with a refutation of your 88 abortions per minute claim. So who is not arguing in good faith?Your data is invalid as to your abortion rate claim and you refuse to admit it.Your interpretation of Matt 7:13-14 does not hold against every other interpretation of that scripture. Well, here's one for you.THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.Cheers,
--CaldronEdited by caldron68, : No reason given.

Then you agree. The passages refer to the narrow path through to salvation (that few will take) and the wide road to destruction (that many will take).Cheers,
--Caldron

Nice eye candy, But I see that the actual data for the spinning clock comes from Wikipedia, which also just happens to use the same obsolete data from 2003 that you used in the first place. Sorry.I presented you with facts about the number of actual and estimated abortions reported between 1922 and 2008 and you come back with a spinning clock totaling up an unsubstantiated number of abortions that have happened within the last 36 hours! Based on data from numbers collected in 2003! Please.The information stands refuted. The data is obsolete and your numbers don't stand.Oh, and the fact that this site has an obvious religious bent to it did not go unnoticed.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Can you quote scripture to support this or are you just making it up? Really? Why the unnecessary intermediate step? If the person has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior either he means it or he doesn't. Does God see that this person talks the talk but does not walk the walk and allows that person into summer school anyway? Are we playing fast and loose with the rules now? Doesn't this beg the question about good works vs. blind faith? Is this the hook that saves the Hindus, Muslims and all those Sunday morning Christians?Why the intermediate step? If God is going to remove all knowledge of sin, then why not just get on with it. Maybe summer school is only reserved for those of other faiths. Oh! and those silly Sunday morning Christians. You know the ones. They're the ones that smile at you in church and then cut you off and give you the finger in the parking lot. Gotta love those guys.Jaywill, you've done a hell-of-a lot of dancing around a really simple question. Does Matt 7:13-14 ultimately describe the narrow gate through to Heaven and the wide easy road to destruction (hell) or not? This question requires a simple yes or no answer. If your answer is no, then your belief and that of ICANT falls outside of the mainstream of Christian thinking, as pointed out by myself and DevilsAdvocate.Cheers,
--Caldron68

It's not that I can't wait for the data, it is you that can't wait for the data. I have already pointed out to you the real data for the years 1922 through to 2008 and the ACTUAL and ESTIMATED figures do no support your claims. I noticed that you didn't mention the actual data that I presented to you but only mentioned the estimated number of abortions. More deceit on your part.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Jesus IS talking to the disciples. Now let's examine what role the disciples play in their relationship to Jesus. From WikiAnswers we have these two definitions: The same as ours. To witness about Jesus and win people to Christ. They were like Jesus's posse. They helped spread the word of God and the news of Jesus and forgiveness. They also stood as witness to his life, and wrote of his story.So yes, Jesus was talking to the disciples. He is teaching them the word of God with the full expectation that they will go out and teach the word of God to those that have not heard it.You contention that the message of Matt 7:13-14 was not meant for anybody other than the disciples is flat out wrong.I wouldn't go changing any sermons yet if I were you. This is mighty arrogant of you to claim that you are better than all the other Christians out there. Considering the way that you have presented yourself in this thread, I would say that you are no better than any other Christian that I have ever met. Yes he was. Not directly, but he was. He was teaching the teachers with the direct expectation that those teachers would go out and spread the word of God to those that had not heard the message. So yes, he was speaking to the unbelievers and you know it. On the contrary, you are boxing the scripture into a very tight and narrow definition. Something that you don't do for other scriptures, I'm sure. You're not letting the Bible speak what was intended at all. Only if you look at these scriptures as a very narrow conversation between Jesus and his disciples does your definition fit your needs. If viewed in a wider context, Jesus teaching the teachers, your assetion falls flat on its face.Cheers,
--Caldron68