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Author | Topic: The Flood = many coincidences | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Creationists don't really care about the mechanism, just that the flood occurred. They know that god caused it, how he did it is not important to the fact (to them) that the flood occurred. But they'll make up the silliest scientific-sounding excuses for flood-related questions! And defend them to the hilt! Why can't they just stick to their beliefs, and stop twisting and manipulating scientific data in an effort to validate those beliefs? Twisting and misrepresenting science does their argument no good and it annoys scientists to no end. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4220 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Maybe it is just that they figure that if they continue with their drivel that eventually the scientific community will get so sick of their idiocy that the scientific community will accept their drivel as science just to shut the creos up
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Have you forgotten the reason this site exists?
The argument is with those who want to teach flood geology etc. in science classes and claim that isn't religiously based. They can't evoke miracles and get away with that.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4220 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
No I haven't forgotten its just that my sarcasm creeps through every now & then. "My insanity is the only thing that keeps me sane." W T Young, 1993
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But they'll make up the silliest scientific-sounding excuses for flood-related questions! And defend them to the hilt! Agreed, but where it gets silly is where they try to shoehorn evidence into the picture. Shells on mountaintops, krakatoa volcanoes every square mile, the grand canyon, etc etc etc. And all the while, the fossil record of life on earth provides no discernible occasion for such an event to fit into the calendar. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I wrote this and somehow missed Percy's reply which addresses the same point I had but rather than just toss out my post I thought I would just put it up just to reiterate what Percy is saying.
---Original Post--------------------------------- Nobody has addressed these issues and they are VERY softball in nature so I thought I would intrude. rox or someone with actual credentals can certainly correct any errors I made.
1. You will note on the map that ocean crust is `bumping' into quite a bit of continental mass, especially along the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, Arctic, etc., and.. get off the phone because there's no subduction zone! What's up doc? We've got lots of youthful ocean crust bumping up against a bunch of geriatric rock! 2. You will also notice that S. America and Africa are getting squeezed' by MOM's on both sides. Watch out... those continents just might pop out!
The one BIG assumption that you are making that would even allow you to think that either of these statements makes any sense is that the plate boundaries are always at the edge of where continental crust meets oceanic crust. This is totally not true. Look at this map of the plates. Wikimedia Error Look in particular at North America. It is not being "squeezed" at all because the continent and the half of the Atlantic sea floor west of the mid Atlantic ridge are all part of the SAME PLATE. The "missing" subduction zone you are looking for is on the west end of that plate on the west coast of North America. It appears that you have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what plate tectonic theory even is if you have such a bad misconception such as that all continental crust and ocean crust are on seperate plates. If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD and I respond to each other:
quote:quote:quote: No, Genesis 7 says the mountains were covered. Let's not play dumb and forget your own argument halfway through a sentence.
quote: But nobody calls 7 meters a "mountain." And a boat made to hold that many animals would have its bottom dragging on the ground in only 7 meters of water and yet it is described as being lifted above the earth. And by the way, the "fountains of the deep" are not connected to the 15 cubits in any direct way. Instead, it is simply the dumping of all the water into the ocean. But again, I've already accounted for that. Dump all the water into the ocean, including all underground sources, and you only raise sea level by about 250 feet. So unless we're going to say that there wasn't a single place on the entire earth higher than the Matterhorn at DisneyWorld, there isn't enough water to flood the earth. Is that what you're arguing? Then where are the mountains? There aren't any in Florida. That's why for quite some time, the tallest point in all of Florida was the Matterhorn at Disneyworld.
quote: Except the story isn't mute. It specifically states that the water "prevailed upon the earth" (meaning a flood, not a magical shell) and "rose up" (meaning a flood, not a magical shell). Remember, the ark lands on Mt. Ararat. To do that, it has to be above as the waters "abated." But if there were a magical shell of water, then there's no way the Ark could get there since it was made below that level. Unless you're going to say that god made the ark magically defy gravity. We're back to my previous comment: If you're going to invoke magic, then get off your ass and invoke the magic.
quote: Incorrect. A depth of 7 meters is trivially viewed. It's about the height of a two-story house. I live in the valley. The hills above me are only tower a few hundred feet. A shell of water 15 cubits would still be visible as a shell. But it isn't called a shell. It's called a flood:
Genesis 7:17: And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. If you're going to abandon the text, then get off your ass and say so.
quote: Incorrect. A depth of 7 meters is trivially viewed. In fact, the topography of the earth would still look pretty much the same. Nobody would say the water had "prevailed." The ark certainly wouldn't have been "lifted." And there's no way it could have managed to get up to the mountains.
quote: Are you not paying attention to the conversation here? The ones saying that there was a "vapor canopy" that condensed and caused the earth to be flooded? The ones claiming that the molecularly entrapped water in the mantle somehow made it to the surface? That is the smell of attempts to make the flood a natural process. Driven by god, to be sure, but still a natural process. It's the same thing insistence we make in science: Yes, a human being put the chemical reagents together in the beaker, but the reaction happens all on its own as a natural process.
quote: But that isn't what the text says:
Genesis 7:11: In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 7:12: And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. God did not wave his hand and create water. Instead, water that already existed was dumped upon the earth.
quote: Incorrect. If that were true, why would we be arguing about a "vapor canopy"? I know I didn't bring it up. Let's not play dumb.
quote: Then why do we have Buzsaw saying in Message 93:
Some of the present ocean water would have been either sub terrain or as vapor as per the Biblical model. Why is he trying to justify a mechanism if it isn't important? You claim to be playing devil's advocate, but let's not play dumb. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So unless we're going to say that there wasn't a single place on the entire earth higher than the Matterhorn at DisneyWorld, there isn't enough water to flood the earth. Is that what you're arguing? That's what Buz was saying, in Message 48, when he wrote:
quote: If you flatten, or smooth, out the earth so it has almost no elevation and then add a little water to the system, you could flood the whole plantet. That's the model you've refused to address.
That's why for quite some time, the tallest point in all of Florida was the Matterhorn at Disneyworld. Isn't the Matterhorn in California? Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks Rrhain, it's really quite easy.
RAZD and I respond to each other:
quote:No, Genesis 7 says the mountains were covered. Let's not play dumb and forget your own argument halfway through a sentence.quote:RAZD: Genesis 7 says the mountains were lowered?quote:Me: Because Genesis 7 says they were. Yes, and the response in question was in to the issue of the mountains being LOWERED, NOT to whether or not they were COVERED -- a point you missed on the first go-round, and which you then proceeded to continue to miss on the second. It seems I know my own argument better than you do eh? I'll admit, that a comma would have helped, something I frequently forget to use (new year's resolution,, use more,).
initial response to bluescat (Message 98) in Message 102:
Where does it say the mountains were lowered?
Why do they have to be to be covered in water? When you skip this context you still need to deal with the "to be to be" -- those that read in context see the first "to be" refers specifically to the mountains being LOWERED, while the second is in reference to questioning why they need to be LOWERED. My argument is that the flood could be managed by a god that can divide the red sea by using similar control over water to make it cover the mountains WHERE THEY ARE, and that there is more than enough water on earth today to manage that.
But nobody calls 7 meters a "mountain." So the flow up and onto the land only needs to be 20 feet deep to meet the documented depths. You can easily cover all the existing land today with a layer 20 ft deep, with plenty left over to float your boat.
But again, I've already accounted for that. Dump all the water into the ocean, including all underground sources, and you only raise sea level by about 250 feet. So unless we're going to say that there wasn't a single place on the entire earth higher than the Matterhorn at DisneyWorld, there isn't enough water to flood the earth. And you are still missing the whole point.
Except the story isn't mute. It specifically states that the water "prevailed upon the earth" (meaning a flood, not a magical shell) and "rose up" (meaning a flood, not a magical shell). Remember, the ark lands on Mt. Ararat. To do that, it has to be above as the waters "abated." But if there were a magical shell of water, then there's no way the Ark could get there since it was made below that level. Unless you're going to say that god made the ark magically defy gravity. Well, the mechanism already given above was that gravity was made to be perpendicular to any surface, any pendulum would point directly to any surface near it, and water would naturally flow over the land.
We're back to my previous comment: If you're going to invoke magic, then get off your ass and invoke the magic. It is a supernatural event. Again, if it is a supernatural event then it involves the supernatural by definition. How the supernatural event is produced is necessarily through supernatural interaction.
But it isn't called a shell. It's called a flood:
Genesis 7:17: And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
If you're going to abandon the text, then get off your ass and say so. Isn't this after the 15 cubits bit? So now the waters get deeper and lift the ark? I see no problem yet.
Are you not paying attention to the conversation here? The ones saying that there was a "vapor canopy" that condensed and caused the earth to be flooded? The ones claiming that the molecularly entrapped water in the mantle somehow made it to the surface? That is the smell of attempts to make the flood a natural process. Driven by god, to be sure, but still a natural process. Actually those are attempts to explain where the water was before, not how it behaved during the flood. Many creationists believe that the earth was quite different before the flood, and this is just part of that belief. Look at what Buz says.
God did not wave his hand and create water. Instead, water that already existed was dumped upon the earth. Exactly. He did not create water in parting the red sea either, just relocated it.
Then why do we have Buzsaw saying in Message 93:
Some of the present ocean water would have been either sub terrain or as vapor as per the Biblical model.
Why is he trying to justify a mechanism if it isn't important? You claim to be playing devil's advocate, but let's not play dumb. That is still pre-flood location, not how the water was made to flood the land. His explanation of how the water was made to flood the land was that the earth pre-flood was topologically smoother.
Remember, the ark lands on Mt. Ararat. To do that, it has to be above as the waters "abated." But if there were a magical shell of water, then there's no way the Ark could get there since it was made below that level. Ever tried to do that? Ever looked at where flotsam ends up after a flood? (and no, we're not talking tidal waves or hurricanes pushing boats inland, we're talking about (magically) settling on a high point) Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : clarty boam by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4220 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Let's bring this to a head.
We have 3 possibilities: Natural FloodSupernatural flood Supernatural guided natural flood. Natural: flood is implausible since by natural means there would not be enough water and if mountains were lowered by natural means, then those on the ark die from the tsunamis formed with the reverse orogeny. Supernatural: God (or some other supernatural entity) does everything except building and loading the ark such as bring the animals from all over the earth to Noah, creates enough water for the ark to work then reverses the process to bring everything back to normal. Supernatural guided natural flood: impossible since the problems with a natural flood would be the same, just have a supernatural reason for such. Therefore there was no natural flood and the supernatural flood exists only for those who accept that supernatural events occur. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist responds to me:
quote: But notice that there's an "unless." He's posturing, not claiming. Great..."unless." Is he actually saying it or just implying it? We need him to actually make a claim and not just let his mind wander. That's why I said that if we take all the water in the world, including the water from underground sources as well as from the air, and dump it into the oceans, we only raise sea level by about 250 feet. If this is going to be a "flood," then that means the earth was no higher than Florida. Is that what he's saying? He needs to let us know. We cannot read his mind.
quote: Incorrect. That's the model I've done nothing but detail: In order to flood the earth using only the water that exists on the planet, the tallest elevation can only be a few hundred feet above sea level. Thus, the question put to Buzsaw: Is that what he's saying? The entire earth was such that Florida would be the tallest elevation in the whole world? Because if that's what he's saying, then we're going to have to explain how Mt. Everest could rise five miles into the air without liquefying due to the amount of energy required. I'm willing to go there, but Buzsaw has to actually make a statement: Is he saying that the earth had an elevation no higher than a couple hundred feet?
quote: You're right. My mistake. There is no Matterhorn at Disneyworld. I'm not sure where I got that. The point still remains. The highest elevation in Florida is only a few hundred feet. Dump all the water in the world into the ocean and most of Florida goes under. Denver's still high and dry, though. Is Buzsaw saying that Denver was actually no higher than Florida? I need him to actually make that claim so that we can deal with the consequences of it. Otherwise, we're just guessing at what he's trying to say. He needs to get off his ass and say it. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote: That's not a flood, though. That's a shell. The text does not describe a shell of water...it describes a flood:
Genesis 7:17: And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. If you're going to abandon the text, then get off your ass and say so.
quote: But that isn't what the text says. It says there was a flood, not a shell:
Genesis 7:17: And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. If you're going to abandon the text, then get off your ass and say so.
quote: Then why is Buzsaw trying to invoke natural methods such as an earth with an elevation no higher than Flordia? If the answer is magic, then invoke the magic. Don't try to come up with natural explanations. The text says the windows of heaven were opened. That's certainly a fine place for magic water to come from.
quote: No. The ark rises first and then we are told that at 15 cubits, the mountains are covered:
Genesis 7:17: And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 7:18: And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 7:19: And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 7:20: Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. Again, an ark of that size isn't going to be afloat in only 15 meters of water.
quote: Indeed, but that's because they are trying to make it a natural process. You can flood the earth with only the water that currently exists if the earth doesn't have an elevation of more than a hundred feet. Of course, that means we have to explain how Mt. Everest rose five miles without liquefying in the process due to the energy required to do so, but the point is that they are trying to make the flood something that doesn't require magic to make happen.
quote: But that's a different process. The Red Sea is local, not global. Local floods are easy. It's that this flood is global that causes trouble.
quote: Irrelevant. It doesn't matter where the water is located. To flood the earth, it needs to be in the ocean. If you put all the water that is available into the ocean, you only raise sea level by about 250 feet.
quote: No, not magic at all. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
But notice that there's an "unless." He's posturing, not claiming. Great..."unless." Is he actually saying it or just implying it? We need him to actually make a claim and not just let his mind wander.
That's a pretty big "unless". There is no evidence that the earth was ever smooth. Plate tectonics and isostasy practically forbid it, particularly in the framework of human existence. In fact, the bible itself refutes this scenario. I'm afraid YECs are just groping again, hoping for a magical solution to their problem.
Incorrect. That's the model I've done nothing but detail: In order to flood the earth using only the water that exists on the planet, the tallest elevation can only be a few hundred feet above sea level.
I was quite taken aback at this statement also. It could mean that YECs do not really have the decency to read our posts, or that they do not (or refuse to) understand.
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Architect-426 Member (Idle past 4653 days) Posts: 76 From: NC, USA Joined: |
Hello Catholic Scientist and Happy New Year.
quote: You’re missing my whole point here. Weather the ocean crust is 100, 200 or 300+ million years old is not the issue I am revealing. The ”fact’ is that there is a 3+ billion year difference in age of the ocean crust vs. the continents.
quote: There is? Interesting, it looks like a great big ditch to me! Where is all of the sediment buildup? There would be literally piles of . .hundreds of miles high again if you stacked it vertically over these ”millions’ of years. And look closely, this ”zone’ clearly changes shape as you go north and south doesn’t it? And there’s still a bunch of volcanoes in the western Americas, all over the place, and far removed from any subduction zones. Take a ”looksea’ at Africa in your link. It’s surrounded by MOR’s (or MOM’s) but NO subsuction cracks! Where is all of the ”youthful’ crust going to go to get ”recycled’? Ditto between Antarctica and Africa as well as Australia. Again, in your link take a closer look at the Filipino plate subduction zones. Interesting, it’s surrounded! Where are the MOR’s? Furthermore, where are all of the MOM’s for the Pacific? (Oh, there’s a little strand of them west of southern Chile) . . almost 1/3rd of the face of the planet (ie the Great Pacific Blue) is a great big giant orphan!!! Take a closer look at the Pacific Ocean and you see a ton of volcanic islands, but no MOR’s to make new crust. Why is this? The crust had to be created somewhere to support the plate tectonic theory, but I don’t see any, or enough of them to create this huge mass of ocean floor. Just a bunch of volcanic edifices. Subduction as well as ”sea floor spreading’ is assumed based on what scientists ”think’ they are seeing and also what they truly ”want’ to see to support the PT theory. They do not take the time to explore other mega events that could have created these oceanic ditches and ridges. They like the plate tectonic theory too much and therefore can’t let go of it due to its dominance in science. Again it does sound kinda cool and has therefore become the ”knee jerk’ solution to all geological features.
quote: Yes! That’s right! It’s just ”sitting there’! Thank you! . . Oh wait, there is some movement . . ~2.5 centimeters per anno . .. hilarious.
quote: Well, then all the volcanologists need to change their publications as all of the volcanic edifices in the Cascades are stated as being “continental margin” volcanoes, and then they show the ”classic’ subduction diagram to explain their formation. And of course as we take a look at the Pacific blue bottom in this local we see a series of canyons, faults, and more volcanoes . . no subduction bin. So what gives? Furthermore, how in the heck does ”thin’ ocean crust subduct below a ”thick’ continental crust? Huh??? Why don’t the continents subduct? Too thick? Not worth as much ransom perhaps? The only ”subducting’ going on in the world is by the Mafia.
quote: Well the ”whoopty’ is the ”fact’ of the 3+ billion year age difference, and the ”do’ is, given this ”geological fact’, this now forces science to change gears and go into science fiction overdrive with even deeper fictional theory like continents ”deciding’ to ”break apart’ and ”floating’ around the globe crashing and bashing into each other in dire efforts to explain this huge paradox. Remember, science must be 1) observable 2) testable and 3) repeatable. Otherwise, it is theory and ONLY theory and therefore MUST remain and be dealt with strictly on a theoretical basis. Moving theory into the fact category is very risky business as well as a grave scientific sin, and it has been committed over and over in the field of earth science. You’re an engineer so you know your work must be bullet proof or else your career is on the line. Bridges and buildings are held up by good design, sound engineering, and the tested science that backs it. Geologists and earth scientists have no accountability so they can throw out whatever theory and million-billion this and that and have absolutely NO repercussions regarding their assumptions that are based on even more assumptions, and then write a book and teach college. Gee wiz its time for change. We simply cannot keep letting outlandish earth science theories muddy up the definition of true science. Land goes UP and land comes DOWN. Simple. And yes there is some horizontal shifting at major faults . ..but no drifting, and the ocean crust does not get sucked up like a big giant Slurpee. Again, scientists prefer to totally ignore observed and documented earth processes of how land is formed and destroyed via volcanism in preference over a poorly backed theory. This is absurd folks. Scientists have ”played’ around with plate tectonics long enough.
quote: Of course not. This was simply my way of opening up the conversation thus exposing this huge scientific paradox. And it worked . ..Now everyone is booking down the science fiction autobahn wide open showing Looney Tune cartoons of more wacky theory.
quote: Run the numbers for yourself and take a closer look at all of the geographical details. The plate tectonic theory utterly falls apart like a giant jig saw puzzle turned upside down. Now science has a great big ”non tectonic’ mess to clean up . . good luck. Challenge: If you guys are going to prove the play tectonic theory to a fussy, cranky old Architect, then please provide the following: ” Sound, tested experiments that subduction actually occurs. Preferably from Los Alamos National Laboratories or Oakridge. Real experiments please.” Sound, tested experiments that the sea floor is actually spreading at the MOR’s. Again, please provide experimental data from a national laboratory. Annual millimeter measurement is negligible. (These features have eluded scientists for so long it’s not even funny. I have proved how these formations occurred in my own shop, and I can repeat it, over and over again.) ” Sound, tested, documented and observed data that continental drift occurred, or is still occurring. Real experiments, no cartoons. Annual centimeter measurement is negligible. Again, national laboratories please. I will look forward to seeing some real scientific proof. If I am not convinced, then I will stamp the submitted information with a stamp I have in my office that we use for submitted data from GC’s and suppliers in order to prove to me that their materials and products meet my strict specifications. It simply says REJECTED-RESUBMIT. And please, come back to me with documented science and not the 'typical' evolutionist responses that can only make personal jabs. Jab the science. Thanks
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
And please, come back to me with documented science and not the 'typical' evolutionist responses that can only make personal jabs. quote: Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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