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Author Topic:   Why so friggin' confident?
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4746 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 16 of 413 (493559)
01-09-2009 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 1:10 PM


Nebulous
This doesn't address how you know Genesis is correct and Kojoki is not?
Mind you, the texts are not at issue; the devil is not at issue; the issue is: how do you know you are right.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 1:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 3:02 PM lyx2no has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 17 of 413 (493561)
01-09-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 1:10 PM


Re: Because
C.S Lewis said this about devils:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them."
The truth is that real devils exist, and to be free from their influences we are to resist them and submit ourselves to the God of the Bible.
I agree with Huntard, this is hearsay and philosophical musings by a Christian apologist not evidence of the existence of demons.
BTW, I am a fan of C.S. Lewis as well as his Inklings friend J.R.R. Tolkien. They are both fantastic story tellers in their own right. I have in my library and have read all of the Chronicles of Narnia, his Space Trilogy i.e. Paralandra and his non-fiction books i.e. Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, etc. He was a very intelligent man. But intelligent men can be wrong. Even Albert Einstein was initially wrong about the Steady State Theory of the Universe.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 1:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 3:14 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 413 (493567)
01-09-2009 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 11:03 AM


Re:
This section of the EvC forum has nothing to do with evolution. It's the place where people of faith and belief in the God of the Bible can share with those who have no faith and belief in the God of the Bible.
But the starting place is that someone should at least read the Bible before entering into dialogue about the Bible.
Did you really totally miss the point of my post? I didn't say that this topic was anything to do with evolution.
Please tell me what you think the point of my post was. I'd like to see if you can figure it out.
Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.

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 Message 9 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 11:03 AM John 10:10 has replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 19 of 413 (493573)
01-09-2009 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reality Man
01-05-2009 7:09 PM


Before I answer your question, I need to make a couple of things clear. I grew up in a christian fundamentalist family. Like most children who grew up in such environment, I grew up being a christian fundamentalist. When I was about 19-20 or so, I began to have serious doubts about my faith in the judeo-christian god. This shift in attitude could be attributed to 2 things: my increasing love for people and spending many after-school hours talking to my philosophy professor. I am now an atheist.
That said, the answer to your question is quite simple. It is the same answer why children who grew up under the Pol Pot regime were able to commit atrocious acts while they were still under 12 or so. It is the same answer why nazi youths were able to commit such atrocious acts against the Jews under the nazi regime. It is the same answer why when I was in college I saw 8 year olds holding "god hates fags" signs among christian protesters.
The answer is get them while they're still young! Kids don't know any better! You drill nonsensical things into their heads when they were young and they will grow up believing in nonsensical things!
Any sane adult would tell you that killing every man, woman, and child in a city is immoral. Any sane adult would tell you that people can't live in whales. Any sane adult would tell you that women can't get pregnant without being contact with human sperm. But wait! they all make perfect sense if you said they're from the bible. Then suddenly, we have a whole population of "sane" adults believing that killing every man, woman, and child in a city is moral, that people can indeed live in whales, and that women egg could be fertilized without a human sperm.
Here are a series of videos that should at least partially answer why people have such faith in religious texts.
You can find and watch the rest of the videos. Just how do you think these kids will turn out when they grow up?

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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 20 of 413 (493574)
01-09-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 10:24 AM


Incredible!!! You say you never read the Bible, but you want to have a discussion about faith and belief with those who do.
Note that his question could just as easily apply to followers of any religion, and even people who read a conspiracy theory on the internet and take it as completely true without any real reason to do so.
Let me ask you one question. Why should those who have faith in the God of the Bible waste our time reasoning with someone who won't take the time to read the most read book ever printed?
If you don't want to have a discussion, why are you posting? The question asked in the OP doesn't require specific knowledge of the Bible. All it requires is knowledge of the fact that large groups of people accept the writings of their particular religions or cults or conspiracy theories as completely true without any further support for their confidence.
If you aren't asking the right questions, you aren't ready for the right answers, or will even agree that there are right questions and right answers.
It sounds to me like "right answers" is code for "answers John 10:10 agrees with."
Why don't you actually address the topic of the thread? Do you feel confident in your religious beliefs? If so, why? Are ancient writings collected in an old book sufficient to grant you your faith with enough confidence to tell scientists backed with objective data, "you are wrong because God says so?" Is there more to it than that? Why do you have faith in your particular religion (I presume Christianity by your posts and username), but not in any other religion? Why have faith (defined as a belief not based on proof) at all? Surely you have a reason (and an appeal to "salvation" or "fear of hell" would be irrelevant, because those are based on the same faith).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 10:24 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 3:55 PM Rahvin has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 21 of 413 (493576)
01-09-2009 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Huntard
01-09-2009 1:22 PM


Re: Because
Of course, you have no evidence for this statement. It could be that you have to place your faith in Mohammed or Thor or whatever other deity. Or it could be that devils don't exist at all.
Now you are on to something! C.S. Lewis went on to say this about devils:
They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.
Belief in God is a reality that comes from believing that He exists and that He rewards those that dilligently seek Him.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : added sentence

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 Message 15 by Huntard, posted 01-09-2009 1:22 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by Percy, posted 01-09-2009 3:08 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 22 of 413 (493577)
01-09-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 2:49 PM


Re: Because
I don't really care what lewis said, in fact, I don't even see how that quote is in any way relevant to what I said. It's probably me though, I never get what you're on about.
As for this bit:
John 10:10 writes:
Belief in God is a reality that comes from believing that He exists and that He rewards those that dilligently seek Him.
Are you going to do the same thing again you did on the objective/subjective morals/conscience? Thread? Just spouting non-sequiturs and bible quotes? If so, please stop, you're boring me allready. I'll just have to tel you this again, I guess: "Quotes from old books you THINK are true, but are not supported by anything else, are not evidence". I do hope I got the point across, else we're in for quite a dreary ride, people.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 23 of 413 (493578)
01-09-2009 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by lyx2no
01-09-2009 1:26 PM


Re: Nebulous
This doesn't address how you know Genesis is correct and Kojoki is not?
Mind you, the texts are not at issue; the devil is not at issue; the issue is: how do you know you are right.
I beg to differ with you. The texts are the issue, as Jesus declared in John 5,
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have (eternal) life."
Those who come to Jesus do find that He is the giver of eternal life.
So you don't have to know if I'm right.
Only I have to know that Jesus is right.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2009 1:26 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2009 4:37 PM John 10:10 has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 24 of 413 (493581)
01-09-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 2:49 PM


Re: Because
John 10:10 writes:
Now you are on to something! C.S. Lewis went on to say this about devils:
They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.
This is a good example of what I think this thread is about. Do you accept the existence of devils on the basis of faith or evidence? If your answer is faith, then given you have no evidence how can you have any confidence in the existence of devils.
If your answer is evidence then I don't think that's what this thread is about. I think it's asking why people hold beliefs based upon faith as strongly, or even more strongly, than beliefs based upon evidence.
--Percy

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 25 of 413 (493582)
01-09-2009 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate
01-09-2009 1:31 PM


Re: Because
But intelligent men can be wrong. Even Albert Einstein was initially wrong about the Steady State Theory of the Universe.
You are right about that. Even unintelligent men can be wrong.
Einstein's main problem in believing in the God who desires to be personal was that he couldn't understand how atoms sometimes fissioned into different parts. "God doesn't throw dice" he replied.
The God of the Bible reveals and manifests Himself to those who honor Jesus as Lord. Do I have to prove this to you? No, I don't. I only have to prove it to myself.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-09-2009 1:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 26 of 413 (493583)
01-09-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Reality Man
01-09-2009 3:41 AM


I guess if I were to rephrase my question, it would be...
What is Faith? or what it is about faith that makes people so determined that what they believe in is as real as the keyboard I'm typing on.
Well, to be perfectly plain, faith is defined by the dictionary as "a belief not based on proof." As to the reason...
Human beings have evolved to recognize patterns. It gives us the ability to read, to rationally examine the world around us, to recognize that there may be a predator stalking us, and to see fluffy bunnies in clouds.
Unfortunately, sometimes we're too good at recognizing patters, and we see what isn't there. We commonly refer to this as "the mind playing tricks on us."
Religion combines this pattern-recognition with primitive mythology "explaining" various unknowns to create a self-perpetuating meme that infects humanity almost literally like a disease.
For example, when the world around us is explained as being created and controlled by an all-powerful, all-knowing deity who has a plan for everyone and works in mysterious ways, a confirmation bias is established whereby all events, positive or negative, regardless of rational examination or contradictory evidence, are taken as evidence of that deity's direct hand. If you pray for a sick child and it lives, it's a miracle, praise God. If the child dies, God works in mysterious ways, praise God. Small events in an individual's life (especially small coincidences, like hearing an appropriate song for what you were just thinking, especially if the thought and song were faith-based, a likely occurance for the extremely religous) "confirm" the established belief over and over again.
Memes like this are typically passed on to children, meaning they are literally brainwashed from birth with confirmation-bias beliefs, to which is added the fear of social stygma if you don't believe like everyone else does. In teh case of Christianity they're raised going to church at least weekly, where they are taught stories from the bible (and told they are true). This is of course met unquestioningly most of the time, because they're children. They sing songs that just so happen to repeat certain phrases over and over again, drilling them into their young minds, They practice repetative rituals and respons by rote repetition, not by a thoughtful response.
Christianity (and others) add the not-so-subtle threat of divine wrath for unbelievers. This means that rational examination fo those beliefs is actively discouraged to the point that even thinking about questioning the truth of those beliefs causes fear and apprehension. "Oh no, I won't be saved!" "My faith isn't strong enough!" "It's the devil trying to lead me astray!" These fears are often addressed by a renewed zeal as the individual attempts to purge themself of doubt by investing more time, energy, and thought into the teachings of the religion (attending church mroe often, Bible studies, somethimes even joining the clergy). Joining a community that holds similar beliefs where individuals will confirm the faith of the one feeling doubt serve to re-establish the doubter in the faithful community. This, of course, restarts the cycle and again strengthens the confidence of the faithful - "God saved me from my weakness," etc.
There's more than this, of course. Many religions offer a reward of some sort for accepting their beliefs - heaven for Christianity. Scientologists have their "Manifested Thetan" (I think I have the name right). Others have Nirvana, or a positive reincarnation. Christianity's offer of a "personal relationship with Go" is also attractive for many - who doesn't want to feel loved by the Creator of the Universe Himself! These would all fall into the "wishful thinking" category, and it's extremely strong. Challenges to such beliefs provoke fear - such challenges are felt to threaten salvation and their cosmic father figure, after all. Children don't like giving up their imaginary friends, either.
As a guy with no faith whatsoever, I want someone to baby spoon feed me the rational (the key word here is 'rational') reasoning behind the strong belief people have for things that as of yet have no substance, physical or theoretical, or have such an abstract application to reality.
This is a question of curiosity, I simply want to discuss the science behind faith, and one's absolute certainty that something incredible, such as God or a virgin giving birth or miracles, exists.
As a guy who used to have faith and now has none, the above is what I think goes on in the minds of the faithful.
Some of my words were harsh (brainwashing, disease), but that's my honest appraisal, having been a participant in the process for my first 20-some years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Reality Man, posted 01-09-2009 3:41 AM Reality Man has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 27 of 413 (493585)
01-09-2009 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NosyNed
01-09-2009 1:52 PM


Re:
Did you really totally miss the point of my post? I didn't say that this topic was anything to do with evolution.
Here's your quote:
Sooooo amusing. This is EXACTLY the issue with near enough to 100 % of the creationists who drop in here arguing against evolution.
Did you miss the point of my post?
We who have faith in the God of the Bible come to this forum section to share with those who do not have faith in the God of the Bible, not to argue against evolution which we could do in other forum sections.

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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 413 (493587)
01-09-2009 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taz
01-09-2009 2:18 PM


I call child abuse.

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 29 of 413 (493591)
01-09-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rahvin
01-09-2009 2:33 PM


Why don't you actually address the topic of the thread? Do you feel confident in your religious beliefs? If so, why? Are ancient writings collected in an old book sufficient to grant you your faith with enough confidence to tell scientists backed with objective data, "you are wrong because God says so?" Is there more to it than that? Why do you have faith in your particular religion (I presume Christianity by your posts and username), but not in any other religion? Why have faith (defined as a belief not based on proof) at all? Surely you have a reason (and an appeal to "salvation" or "fear of hell" would be irrelevant, because those are based on the same faith).
Why do I have faith in the God of the Bible? Here goes. When I read the Bible, it told the story of how God created man, how man sinned, how God pursued man, first through a man, then through his family, then through the nation of Israel, and in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son to save man from his sins. This Messiah's coming was prophesied many many times in the OT Scriptures, and was fulfilled many many times in the Person of Jesus Christ as revealed in the NT Scriptures. This Jesus died on a cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later, and ascended into heaven 40 days after His resurrection. Just before Jesus left, He told His followers to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Spirit's coming. 10 days later Pentecost became a living reality for the 120 in the upper room as recorded in Acts 2, and for the 3000 who received the words of Peter in Acts 2:38-39;
"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
You can deny that these events ever happened if you wish, or ask me to provide proof infinitum that it's true. But for me it's too late to disbelieve. I am one who has believed the words of Jesus, believed the words of Peter, and have received God's promises - the forgiveness of my sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as is recorded in Acts 1&2 which happened to the first followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is why I believe and why I cannot "not believe."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rahvin, posted 01-09-2009 2:33 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Blue Jay, posted 01-09-2009 4:55 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 32 by Rahvin, posted 01-09-2009 5:40 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 41 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 11:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4746 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 30 of 413 (493594)
01-09-2009 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 3:02 PM


You're Becoming Tedious ” Again.
The quoting of holy books is the question not the answer.
The topic is clearly how do you know you are right. The name of it is "Why so Friggin' Confident?" for Pete's sake. If you can't "figger" that one out I don't know what your opinion could be worth anyway.
So you don't have to know if I'm right. Only I have to know that Jesus is right.
And if you don't want to share it, why are you posting on this thread: Couldn't find a mind your own business thread?

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 3:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by John 10:10, posted 01-10-2009 11:25 AM lyx2no has replied

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