Why do I have faith in the God of the Bible? Here goes. When I read the Bible, it told the story of how God created man, how man sinned, how God pursued man, first through a man, then through his family, then through the nation of Israel, and in the fulness of time God sent forth His Son to save man from his sins. This Messiah's coming was prophesied many many times in the OT Scriptures, and was fulfilled many many times in the Person of Jesus Christ as revealed in the NT Scriptures. This Jesus died on a cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later, and ascended into heaven 40 days after His resurrection. Just before Jesus left, He told His followers to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Spirit's coming. 10 days later Pentecost became a living reality for the 120 in the upper room as recorded in Acts 2, and for the 3000 who received the words of Peter in Acts 2:38-39;
You just explained the basics of what the Bible says. That doesn't tell us why you believe it. Do you believe everything you read? If I showed you a different holy text that told a different story for the creation of the Universe and mankind's purpose, would you believe that one? Why Christianity and not Islam or Hindu or Buddhism or Taoism or the traditional Norse\Greek\Roman\Egyptian\Sioux\Iraqois\Aztec\Incan\etc beliefs?
Does the Christian version simply appeal to you personally more? Why? Do you believe it to be more true than the others? If so, why? Do you value salvation and fear eternal damnation? Other religions have mutually exclusive beliefs regardign such things - why do you follow Christianity's path to salvation and not one of the others? Why do you even believe that salvation and damnation exist, since those are also only suggested by religious beliefs?
You mentioned Biblical prophesy that is fullfilled within the Biblical texts, but the same can be said about the Harry Potter books, which obviously have no ties to reality beyond the names of a few locations. Why are you so confident in your beliefs when you have to take them on faith?
So far, you're a perfect example of what I discussed in my other post - trapped in a self-confirming meme and trained to respond to challenges with rote repetition of the meme's main tenets without any intellectual self-reflection. Have you ever even thought of why you believe what you believe?
If you haven't, you're not alone. I didn't seriously consider such questions myself while I was Christian - I simply believed.
You can deny that these events ever happened if you wish, or ask me to provide proof infinitum that it's true.
"Proof infinitum?" Just a reason is all we're asking. I'm not asking for proof - that wouldn't belong in Faith and Belief, because we'd start discussing biology or physics or cosmology or archeology or other scientific topics. We jsut want to know the reason that you believe the Christian version. Did you have some sort of personal revelation? Were you simply brought up as a Christian and cannot bring yourself to consider an alternative?
But for me it's too late to disbelieve. I am one who has believed the words of Jesus, believed the words of Peter, and have received God's promises - the forgiveness of my sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as is recorded in Acts 1&2 which happened to the first followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is why I believe and why I cannot "not believe."
That doesn't make sense, John. I, too, once believed in the Christian faith. I accepted Jesus into my heart, I believed that I had received forgiveness for my sins through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ, etc. And yet I no longer believe. Do you consider it impossible to re-evaluate one's personal beliefs? If so, why? Is this unique to Christianity? If so, why was I able to do so?
If your answer is evidence then I don't think that's what this thread is about. I think it's asking why people hold beliefs based upon faith as strongly, or even more strongly, than beliefs based upon evidence.
With me, faith and evidence are inseparable. Without evidence I would have faith in nothing. That's what keeps me with the Bible after reading much in books like the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Buddhist, Hindu and other Eastern doctrines etc.
Were it not for the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible relative to Jesus, the crucifixion, Israel, the Arab nations, etc I would have likely gone the way of Taz way back in my teen years before I realized there were also personal experiences corroborative to evidence supportive of faith which John 10:10 alludes to.
When I drive down the freeway, I have no guarantee that the next bridge I cross will not fall. Some have fallen killing the hapless people who had faith in them. But the observed evidence that the bridges will not likely fall strengthens my faith to the point that I drive on believing they will all hold me up.
OTO if I wanted to cross an old long time unused bridge over a creek leading up to a shed in which there were things I wanted to load into my truck I might opt to park my truck on the road for lack of evidenced faith in the observed bridge and cart out what I wanted from the shed.
Edited by Buzsaw, : qramatical fix
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
The conclusion I come to from talking to many people with faith is that they don't really understand why they have faith, they just know that they do.
As noted the definition is
I don't think people can explain why, because it isn't "rational" (where we define rational as "based on logical proof or material evidence").
Why are some people republicans and some democrats? The beliefs that differentiate politics are also faith-based:
We just had a demonstration of the absolute complete failure of the trickle-down economics belief, preached by Reagan and others, and yet you don't see republicans discarding this belief ... they remain confident that they know more about economics than (heathen) democrats.
A lot of social concepts are beliefs, based on faith. Take the Declaration of Independence: "we take these truths to be self-evident ..." ... and what this is really saying is "we assume these statements to be true ..." we take it on faith.
Re: If you consider Einstein unintelligent, what does that make you.
John 10:10 writes:
You are right about that. Even unintelligent men can be wrong.
If Einstein was unintelligent, what does that make you?
John 10:10 writes:
Einstein's main problem in believing in the God who desires to be personal was that he couldn't understand how atoms sometimes fissioned into different parts. "God doesn't throw dice" he replied.
WTF, that doesn't even make since. His understanding of atoms had nothing to do with his belief in God. This quote is taken out of context by Christian fundamentals (BTW Einstein was Jewish by heritage not Christian) it has nothing to do with the concept of a supernatural omnipotent being of the Bible, rather it was an off-handed comment about his refusal to accept the uncertainties brought about by quantum mechanics, nothing more.
Einstein didn't believe in a personal God because he didn't trust the contradictory, morally depraved human-derived work called the Bible, as shown here:
Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt writes:
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Einstein writes:
For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
Einstein writes:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
Einstein, in "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930 writes:
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side writes:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Einstein writes:
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" writes:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
Einstein, was a humanist (though probably not altogether an atheist). He bordered somewhere between agnostism and deism.
John 10:10 writes:
The God of the Bible reveals and manifests Himself to those who honor Jesus as Lord. Do I have to prove this to you? No, I don't. I only have to prove it to myself.
Than why do you post on these boards?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
So far, you're a perfect example of what I discussed in my other post - trapped in a self-confirming meme and trained to respond to challenges with rote repetition of the meme's main tenets without any intellectual self-reflection. Have you ever even thought of why you believe what you believe?
If you haven't, you're not alone. I didn't seriously consider such questions myself while I was Christian - I simply believed.
Well I have. And While belief is most certainly a part of Faith and Faith is part of belief, this does not mean that there are not those of us that have NOT considered all or most of the evidence in connection with the Jedeo-Chtistian faith. One most certainly can exercise an intellectual perspective within this framework.
I have considered all of the questions of doubt that you fellas level against it and many more. Actually the majority of my thinking life has been consumed by this process and I have watched it in public debate by men and women more versed thsan ourselves and seen that it is not only very credible but believable as well.
"Proof infinitum?" Just a reason is all we're asking. I'm not asking for proof - that wouldn't belong in Faith and Belief, because we'd start discussing biology or physics or cosmology or archeology or other scientific topics.
You know this has been done more than enough times in this connection. You simply are one of those people that keeps going , "I dont like it, what else do you got". A person can do this all day long with anything.
The conclusion I come to from talking to many people with faith is that they don't really understand why they have faith, they just know that they do.
I don't think people can explain why, because it isn't "rational" (where we define rational as "based on logical proof or material evidence").
You know full well this is simply hog wash, RAZD. Its the type of statement meant to produce prejudice rather than rational discussion. Judeo-Christianity is more than rational when one starts with reason, instead of preconcieved prejudices.
The worlds definition of what constitues Faith is not even close to what the scriptures or reality would suggest.
Re: If you consider Einstein unintelligent, what does that make you.
DA writes to John 10:10:
If Einstein was unintelligent, what does that make you?
You do realize that there is a difference between intellect and wisdom correct? Wisdom is the application of knowledge. One can choose to dismiss the evidence that exists for Gods existence if he so chooses and still be considered an intellectual by human standards.
Me pop (thought you might enjoy that Popeye verbage) was a rocket scientist, literally, (a real egghead). But he was also a 'elbow bender', if you know what I mean. The doctor told him if he didnt stop the heavy drinking (he was raised in the 40s night club scene, thingy)it would kill him very soon. He told my older brother the doctor did not know what he was talking about. He choose not to heed this warning, but I dont remember him ever being unintellectual in the process, he simply chose not to apply simple wisdom.
There is a difference.
D Bertot
Besides this "I am discustipated at those last comments, after all I has a sinsk of humilgration", Popeye
Re: If you consider Einstein unintelligent, what does that make you.
You do realize that there is a difference between intellect and wisdom correct? Wisdom is the application of knowledge. One can choose to dismiss the evidence that exists for Gods existence if he so chooses and still be considered an intellectual by human standards.
Me pop (thought you might enjoy that Popeye verbage) was a rocket scientist, literally, (a real egghead). But he was also a 'elbow bender', if you know what I mean. The doctor told him if he didnt stop the heavy drinking (he was raised in the 40s night club scene, thingy)it would kill him very soon. He told my older brother the doctor did not know what he was talking about. He choose not to heed this warning, but I dont remember him ever being unintellectual in the process, he simply chose not to apply simple wisdom.
There is a difference.
Yes, I understand the classical definitions of intelligence and widsom but this is not what John 10:10 said, he made the assertion that Einstein was unintilligence not unwise.
I don't know how "wise" Einstein was but I definately know he was not unintelligent.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
You can deny that these events ever happened if you wish, or ask me to provide proof infinitum that it's true. But for me it's too late to disbelieve. I am one who has believed the words of Jesus, believed the words of Peter, and have received God's promises - the forgiveness of my sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as is recorded in Acts 1&2 which happened to the first followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is why I believe and why I cannot "not believe."
To summarize and make it short. You believe it is true because you want it to be true irregardless of any evidence for or against it being true. That is what most non-religious people (myself included) would take of your statements of faith.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
John, your post consisted of a summary of the Bible story and "I believe in it."
How does this answer the question of why you believe it?
Unbevievers just don't get the truth of what happened on Calvary's cross, what happened in Acts 1&2, what happened in Acts 2:38, and what has happened for 2000 years when repentant sinners believe in the truth of Acts 2:38.
The proof is in the pudding - the fact that repentant sinners know that their sins are forgiven, and that they have received the gift of God's Spirit whom God the Father gives to those who honor Jesus as Lord.
Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Unbevievers just don't get the truth of what happened on Calvary's cross, what happened in Acts 1&2, what happened in Acts 2:38, and what has happened for 2000 years when repentant sinners believe in the truth of Acts 2:38.
The proof is in the pudding - the fact that repentant sinners know that their sins are forgiven, and that they have received the gift of God's Spirit whom God the Father gives to those who honor Jesus as Lord.
Again no shred of evidence. Just unsubstantiated assertions.
What would you think if I said that I believe that Zeus is real and that if you don't believe in Zeus then he would send you to Hades in eternal torment. What proof do you have that my beliefs are false and yours are true.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
I, too, once believed in the Christian faith. I accepted Jesus into my heart, I believed that I had received forgiveness for my sins through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ, etc. And yet I no longer believe. Do you consider it impossible to re-evaluate one's personal beliefs? If so, why? Is this unique to Christianity? If so, why was I able to do so?
Without sitting down with you and spending hours discussing your life and family background, your attempt to believe in the Christian faith, ect, it's not possible to answer your question.
Paul had a similar encounter with some so-called disciples in Acts 19, and Paul asked them this one question in Acts 19:2,
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
If not, this could be the reason why you turned away from the Christian faith. Read the rest of what happened to these men in Acts 19:3-7.
To summarize and make it short. You believe it is true because you want it to be true irregardless of any evidence for or against it being true. That is what most non-religious people (myself included) would take of your statements of faith.
Your summary, not mine.
My summary is simply this:
When I believed in Jesus and was baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins, I RECEICED THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom Jesus said would be given to His children (John 14:16-17).
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