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Author | Topic: Evangelical Indoctrination of Children | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
quote: Hold it just a second. They aren't "less emotionally-based." They're differently emotionally-based. Rather than using outright scare tactics, they use other emotional techniques such as peer pressure, social isolation, leveraging of parental authority, etc. The entire concept of a "children's ministry" is nothing but emotional manipulation. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to Rahvin:
quote:quote: That's it? That's your entire response? No discussion over the very real existence of Christians who seem to think that the only way to save someone is to scare them? Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church don't exist? Christian Identity, Christian Patriot, Lambs of Christ, none of these terrorist organizations exist? Why do you really think this kid is up there preaching about hell? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to Percy:
quote: Logical error: Affirming the consequent ("If P, then Q. Q, therefore P.") That is, all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. You reversed the implication and wound up in a place that isn't true. What Percy was saying is that one way to get to a creationist who rejects science is through evangelical fear. That doesn't mean all evangelicals are anti-science creationists. Just that many anti-scientist creationists are evangelicals and came to their anti-science creationist viewpoint because of their evangelism.
quote: So it never occurs to you that you made a mistake? That what you thought was true isn't really as accurate as you might have thought? Your ability to judge is perfect and without error? This has nothing to do with god. It has everything to do with you and your ability to make judgement calls. Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way you think?
quote: Indeed. So where do all of these evangelical creationists come from? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: Of course. It is a huge failure that you don't know what it is. Think for a moment: If you can delcare that other people are trash, why can they not turn around and do the same to you? Are you trash? Hint: Resorting to your religious beliefs will not save you as they have theirs and by their standards, you do not measure up. So which one of you is trash? Might the entire question be faulty in the first place? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote:quote: That doesn't respond to the point, though. That there are intellectual aspects to faith doesn't change the fact that they're using emotional manipulation.
quote: How does one "minister" without emotional manipulation to a child regarding something so significant as belief in god when they haven't even managed to acquire post-operative logic? You can get a kid to believe in anything, including that they've been sexually molested while participating in satanic rituals involving mass murder, all through emotional pressure. No need to talk about things like hell. You just need to make the kid that Mommy and Daddy won't love them anymore, that they're the only ones who can stop "bad things" from happening, play on a child's fear of being wrong, wanting to be good, their trust of authority, and you can get a kid to believe anything you want. Why do you think kids get so anxious about Santa Claus? It's hardly like there's any real consequences for getting on his bad side. But they do go nuts over it because of all the emotional manipulation put upon them by their parents, their friends, and society around them. It certainly isn't because of "intellectual" or "will" arguments being used. It's all emotion. Please explain how you administer to a child without manipulating them emotionally. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: And we can determine that you're telling the truth because of what, precisely? Two-thirds of the world think you're lying. Why should we believe you over them? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote:quote: That you don't understand why that is a bad thing is quite telling. Playing off of the emotions of people, manipulating them into doing things they would not rationally do, is one of the slimier things that people do to each other.
quote: Huh? Who is denying hell? You seem to think that because someone doesn't share your vision of what "hell" is, that means it is being denied. You do understand the distinction between difference and denial, yes?
quote: Oh, so you've been given divine knowledge as to what it means to be a "true Christian"? There are plenty of Christians who disagree with you. Why should we believe you over them? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Hyroglyphx responds to me:
quote: By allowing for the fact that said parent or teacher just might be wrong. By understanding that children are naturally like this and not exploiting it for their own purposes. Just because someone is gullible doesn't mean you have to prey upon it.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: Huh? Where on earth do you find anything even remotely approaching that? Are you saying Christians are incapable of raising children without abusing them? You do understand that most skeptics were raised in households headed by religious people, yes? Of course parents teach their children in their vision of ethics, morality, faith, etc., but when you know the child is incapable of questioning what you say, is dependent upon you for existence, and will do or say anything to please you, then you hold a great responsibility in your hands and you must tread carefully. Do you really think an eight-year-old is in any position to shout at anybody regarding hell? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: "In your view"? Are you trying to tell us that you have divine powers to recognize who is and who is not a Christian? You do know what the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is, yes? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote: I'm sorry, was there a rebuttal in there somewhere? And all the more ironic, you're complaining about my not having a rebuttal. So rather than actually discuss the question at hand, you'd rather play a game of "Woe is me." Get down off the cross, already. We need the wood. Hint: You still show yourself to be incapable of understanding why emotional manipulation of a person incapable of granting consent, dependent upon the one "teaching" him, and in no position to contradict the authority is not exactly a "good" thing. If it were anybody else, we'd call it "torture."
quote:quote: Non sequitur. Please rephrase. Let's try it again, shall we? Who is denying hell?
quote:quote: Where is your evidence of lying? You have divine knowledge as to who is and who is not lying when it comes to the question of god's will?
quote: Oh, I see...when faced with the prospect of putting up or shutting up, it becomes extremely difficult to actually respond with anything coherent and thus an attempt to turn it around and cry about oppression and "ad hominem" attacks become the only defense left for the response that is made to me. Will an answer to the questions be forthcoming or should we expect nothing but deflection and avoidance from now on? Who is denying hell? You have the ability to determine who is and who isn't a Christian? Why should we believe you over them? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Hyroglyphx responds to me:
quote: You mean emotional manipulation of a person incapable of consent, is dependent upon the one "teaching" him, and in no position to question authority isn't "preying"? If it were anything else, we'd call it "torture."
quote: Of course not. That's because they don't trust other people to be able to make their own minds up. They feel the need to "save" people who might just think they don't need saving.
quote: Incorrect. Telling somebody about it is one thing. Manipulating them while doing it is something else. When was the last time you ever heard anybody preaching about the end of the world finish up the sermon with, "But I could easily be wrong"? "That's just me; your mileage may vary"? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: And thus, we see the problem. You're not a Christian. You're a Paulian. Christ said that salvation is through works (after all, as a Jew, that is the law: It is by your actions that you show yourself to be righteous.) But Paul, since he was trying to convert people who didn't really want to be converted, started playing fast and loose...circumcision didn't really mean actually cutting off your foreskin, faith was good enough, etc., etc. Especially given his rivalry with the Jamesians who were not as compromising. "Faith without works is dead," and all that. Are you sure you're a Christian? See, this is the problem with you're approach. I'm sure you'll dismiss it as an argument from popularity, the very fact that you're dismissing the Catholics from being Christians due to their emphasis on works is telling. You're so deep in the "No True Scotsman" fallacy that you can't see that it can easily be applied to you. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: So since these theologians all agree that these groups are Christian, who are you to contradict them? Why is your opinion better? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: And since your own group of vetted "theologians" all agree that these groups are actual Christians and not "posing" (your word), then who are you to contradict them? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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