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Author Topic:   Dawkins and "The Great Tim Tebow Fallacy" (re: pro-life advertisement)
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 76 of 167 (546283)
02-09-2010 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2010 3:29 PM


How Many Humans?
The figure of 70% I got from a book I happen to be (re)reading at the moment. The relevant quote is on page 225.
The Blank Slate writes:
So the moment of conception is in fact a span of twenty-four to forty-eight hours. Nor is the conceptus destined to become a baby. Between two-thirds and three-quarters of them never implant in the uterus and are spontaneously aborted, some because they are genetically defective, others for no discernible reason. The Blank Slate
A cursory search (looking up abortion on wiki) reveals the following:
Wiki writes:
Most miscarriages occur very early in pregnancy, in most cases, they occur so early in the pregnancy that the woman is not even aware that she was pregnant. One study testing hormones for ovulation and pregnancy found that 61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman. Wiki Link
I assume that the difference between the 70% figure and the 61.9% figure is due to the lower one only including those spontaneous natural abortions that occur pre-12 weeks. I have however not researched this extensively.
But whatever the case it seems fairly well established that over 50% of all conceptuses effectively end up in the sewage system quite naturally. So by your definition of humanity the majority of "humans" are never born, most are never even known to have existed and over half of us end up unthinkingly flushed down the loo.
It kind of puts into perspective the number of "human lives" you are "saving" by any change in abortion laws. No? Shouldn't you be advocating major research into natural abortion and the billions of "human lives" lost rather than complaining about a miniscule percentage of fetuses that are medically aborted? If saving "human life" (as you define it to be) is genuinely your goal here?
Of couse that research would overpopulate the planet in no time if successful............
Edited by Straggler, : Add link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-09-2010 3:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-12-2010 3:05 PM Straggler has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 167 (546291)
02-09-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by onifre
02-09-2010 5:19 PM


Re: Playing the Devil's Advocate
But we don't care, see that's the thing. If I told you a dog was killed you may sympathize, sure, I would too. But the truth is dogs are killed every hour, every day, and we do nothing to stop this.
Oni, none of us are omniscient or omnipresent. It sounds as if you are making unreasonable demands like if I can't personally stop animal cruelty in some backwoods part of Idaho, I must not care about animal cruelty.
We have enough people who are poor, starving, living bellow standards, who will grow up to be criminals, develop drug addictions, and, go on to have more fuckn' kids who will repeat this never ending process.
So lets execute the poor and drug addicted since they're blights on humanity, Margaret Sanger style.
We don't need every pregnancy to go to term. People die of starvation every day. The world, and the US, is over populated.
Then.... don't..... get...... pregnant.
You are treating the symptom instead of treating the disease.
In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.
Wait, so are you saying that grocery stores won't allow 46% of blacks 40% of latino's to purchase food? The only color that matters is green.
The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.
So what are you saying? That African-American women not eating right should just kill the fetus preemptively to get it out of the way? I'm struggling to see where abortion is tied in here.
One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.
Oni, that isn't because there isn't enough food in the US! There is ample food in the United States. It is a matter of getting a job to pay for food. If the parent cannot feed that child, that child should be removed from that dangerous environment.
Abortion is a necessary service. And the numbers above are just for the US. Globally, it is sickening.
Abortion isn't the solution, not getting pregnant in the first place is.
If resources were abundant, jobs abundant, food abundant, living conditions equal for everyone, money equal for everyone, then you could set up a mandatory "do the time" situation. But the reality of the matter is we have too many unwanted children who will grow up in poverty, some starve to death, some grow up to be criminals, drug addicts, have many kids of their own..... And all for what? So we can feel good about ourselves that we didn't allow someone to terminate a pregnancy?
So abortion is going to create jobs, create food, create healthy living conditions, eradicate poverty, stop drug addiction, etc? You are stringing together a series of social ills as if one has anything to do with the other.
Did you know that an early leader of the abortion movement, Margaret Sanger, sought to use abortion as a means of clearing the "weeds of society?" Basically she makes the same arguments you are, except she hated black people.
Like I said, and you agreed, everyone is pro-life until they get tested. Then reality punches them in the face and they wake up from the fake world of no consequences.
That doesn't mean that everyone fails the test, it means some people are hypocrites.
No. You said they had the intent to "murder a baby." That is just wrong. That is not the intent.
Are you finding my use of the word "baby" and "murder" objectionable, are the whole premise?
They don't "jam a vacuum up a crotch," dude. You say it as though everyone is enjoying the fuckn' thing
I just think if most people actually knew the details and were allowed to see the same sonogram the doctor is using to systematically disembody their fetus to the tune of anywhere between $400-$1,500, they'd suddenly see a light bulb go off. No where on the planned parenthood or naral websites are there ANY descriptions of what abortions entail.
Every murderer was a fetus.
Was.
But more to the point, no one is having an abortion to kill babies, as though they wanted to. They judged the situation and felt it would be best to not bring another unwanted life into the world.
But there is a rebuttal for every excuse imaginable. Okay, you don't want the baby. But please look at how many people want to adopt. Mom doesn't get baby in the way of her life, dad doesn't have to pay child support, foster parents finally get their bundle of joy, and baby is allowed to live like we are. It's hard to argue with that simple rationalization.
The very government who would impose a law against abortions! Ask any inner city kid if anyone in the government cares for them and is taking measures to see to it that they grow up with a good education, with food, a place to live, etc.
There is a statute for every one of those. I mean, your solution to possibly growing up wrong is just to kill him! I'm sure they'd thank you if they were alive!
No one gives a shit in the sense that no one will be responsible for the child as it grows up. That sole responsibility is for the person who had them. If that is the case, then they have full rights to decide to have it.
Then they have the full right to at any time revoke their rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 02-09-2010 5:19 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2332 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 78 of 167 (546294)
02-09-2010 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Playing the Devil's Advocate
...since thinking and feeling occurs as early as the 12th week of gestation. After the 12th week a fetus simply grows larger. ..
Can I see some references for this?
From
University of Birmingham - Stuart Derbyshire:
"Although the system is clearly immature and much development is still to occur (fig 1), good evidence exists that the biological systems necessary for pain is intact and functional from around 26 weeks' gestation."
All the connections, from the nerve endings, to cabling from them to the brain, to the brain structure necessary to process "feeling" are either not there yet or not connected until well past your "12th week of gestation." Much MUCH more than simply "growing larger" happens between the 12th week and birth.
www.guttmacher.org
The majority of abortions occur when a vacuum apparatus not much bigger than a kidney bean can be used.
Edited by Asgara, : fixed image

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-09-2010 3:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 79 of 167 (546299)
02-09-2010 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2010 7:32 PM


Re: Playing the Devil's Advocate
How's the weather up on that high horse, safe in the suburbs? You must have lived a nice comfy life to be this ignorant.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-09-2010 7:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 80 of 167 (546337)
02-10-2010 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Hyroglyphx
02-09-2010 7:32 PM


"Human"
Hyro
Now that we have established that the majority of fertilised human eggs never result in established pregnancies, much less birth, the rest of your argument comes tumbling down in an avalanche of inconsistency. In fact you seem more interested in exerting your misplaced moral outrage on others than on doing anything about the tragic loss of human life as you have defined it.
Natural abortion is the biggest killer and threat to human life known to man. The life of over 50% of all humanity ends in this manner. By your definition of human and life. That means it is a bigger killer than all of the diseases, ailments and other forms of death you can name combined. But do you advocate that we divert research and treatment funding away from cancer, malaria, AIDS, heart disease, parasitic conditions etc. etc. etc. to tackle this number one killer? No. Of course not. Because when it comes down to it you no more consider these naturally aborted conceptuses as equivalent to genuinely lost human lives any more than I do.
So why when it comes to medically aborting these exact same collections of cells that you are so utterly uncaring about when the are aborted naturally do you experience such ire and outrage? What compels you to use terms like kill, murder, human, distinct life and child in the context of a tiny handful of medical abortions whilst you simultaneously couldn’t give a rats testicle about the billions of biologically identical humans being unknowingly flushed down the toilet?
Either these fertilised eggs are human (as you have defined them to be) and deserving of the same measures we would take to save the life of any other human being. Or we accept that in fact your definition of human in this context is actually rather silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-09-2010 7:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 11:38 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 167 (546351)
02-10-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
02-10-2010 7:55 AM


Re: "Human"
So why when it comes to medically aborting these exact same collections of cells that you are so utterly uncaring about when the are aborted naturally do you experience such ire and outrage? What compels you to use terms like kill, murder, human, distinct life and child in the context of a tiny handful of medical abortions whilst you simultaneously couldn’t give a rats testicle about the billions of biologically identical humans being unknowingly flushed down the toilet?
I think its because its done intentionally.
Analogous to your question:
Everybody dies and most people die from nobody's fault. Why do you care if someone ends the life of another person?
or
People die in accendental car crashes all the time. Why do you care that I ran that person over on purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 7:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4972 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 82 of 167 (546354)
02-10-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
02-10-2010 11:38 AM


Re: "Human"
Straggler writes:
So why when it comes to medically aborting these exact same collections of cells that you are so utterly uncaring about when the are aborted naturally do you experience such ire and outrage? What compels you to use terms like kill, murder, human, distinct life and child in the context of a tiny handful of medical abortions whilst you simultaneously couldn’t give a rats testicle about the billions of biologically identical humans being unknowingly flushed down the toilet?
Catholic Scientist replies:
I think its because its done intentionally.
Analogous to your question:
Everybody dies and most people die from nobody's fault. Why do you care if someone ends the life of another person?
or
People die in accendental car crashes all the time. Why do you care that I ran that person over on purpose?
But you're missing Straggler's point. We care about car crash victims whether or not they were killed intentionally. We spend billions every year on accident prevention. Similarly, we spend billions every year on trying to cure diseases, etc.
But nobody (to my knowledge) cares enough to spend anything on the majority of natural abortions that are so early even the mother is unaware she was pregant. We care no more for those foetuses that are unknowingly flushed away down the toilet than we care for the trillions and trillions of potential humans who have never even become foetuses. I now realise that is essentially the point Dawkins was making and his justification for allowing early abortions.

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 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 83 of 167 (546366)
02-10-2010 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
02-10-2010 11:38 AM


Re: "Human"
I think its because its done intentionally.
Do you think it would be ethically apropriate to leave all those human beings dying of unintended causes (disease, parasites, accidents, heart attacks. whatever) to their fate?
Everybody dies and most people die from nobody's fault. Why do you care if someone ends the life of another person?
I think we should attempt to stop the unnecessary death of human beings. I think human life should be valued and that this is the point of both the medical profession and the laws against killing people.
People die in accendental car crashes all the time. Why do you care that I ran that person over on purpose?
Because I think killing people is wrong. Because I value human life.
The point is that I apply this value of human life consistently to that which I consider "human". Regardless of whether or not the death is intended or otherwise. Whilst those like Hyro (and I guess yourself) seem to condemn the intentional "killing" of conceptuses whilst being entirely unconcerned by the billions of biologically identical "human lives" flushed down the bog.
It is inconsistent and smacks of having a misguided moral vendetta rather than a genuine concern for human life as you define it to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 1:10 PM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 167 (546369)
02-10-2010 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Straggler
02-10-2010 12:55 PM


Re: "Human"
I think its because its done intentionally.
Do you think it would be ethically apropriate to leave all those human beings dying of unintended causes (disease, parasites, accidents, heart attacks. whatever) to their fate?
If there's nothing you could do about it, sure.
I think we should attempt to stop the unnecessary death of human beings. I think human life should be valued and that this is the point of both the medical profession and the laws against killing people.
And a pro-lifer could take the same position but regards a fetus as a human. That some unknowingly, or un-preventably, are lost is beside the point.
The point is that I apply this value of human life consistently to that which I consider "human". Regardless of whether or not the death is intended or otherwise. Whilst those like Hyro (and I guess yourself) seem to condemn the intentional "killing" of conceptuses whilst being entirely unconcerned by the billions of biologically identical "human lives" flushed down the bog.
But you, too, are unconcerned about natural or accidental deaths of human beings.
It is inconsistent and smacks of having a misguided moral vendetta rather than a genuine concern for human life as you define it to be.
You're just trying to refute an opposition rather than trying to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 12:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 2:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 85 of 167 (546386)
02-10-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
02-10-2010 1:10 PM


Re: "Human"
If there's nothing you could do about it, sure.
And where you can do something about it? Are you saying that if we redirected all the medical resources currently aimed at cancer for example that we could not save many of those lost conceptuses that never even make it to the implanting in the uterus stage of development? We would need to save only a small percentage in order to outstrip those that we can save from cancer.
But you, too, are unconcerned about natural or accidental deaths of human beings.
Untrue. I am happy to contribute my time and money to efforts to progress medical science in order to save people's lives. Likewise I would spend time and money advocating laws that prevent people killing others. I wouldn't however spend my time and money on research into saving otherwise unknowingly aborted fetuses. Because I don't think they are "human" in the way that you apparently do.
I think we should attempt to stop the unnecessary death of human beings. I think human life should be valued and that this is the point of both the medical profession and the laws against killing people.
And a pro-lifer could take the same position but regards a fetus as a human.
Then why the fuck are you geting on your high horse about a few medical abortions rather than trying to redirect the entirety of medical resource into saving the billions of lost lives that are the result of by far the largest single factor in "human" death? Nemely the vast majority of natural abortions that go entirely unnoticed.
You're just trying to refute an opposition rather than trying to understand it.
No. I really mean this.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 1:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 3:33 PM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 167 (546403)
02-10-2010 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
02-10-2010 2:00 PM


Re: "Human"
Let me get this straight...
If somebody feels that fertilized egg is a person, and that they should not be intentionally aborted, then you think they should support diverting all medical resources into increasing the survival of the blastocysts that would otherwise naturally fail to implant? And if they feel that the those blastocysts should be left to those unintentional circumstances, then they should not care about trying to help fully developed people who would die from unintentional circumstances?
And you've come to these positions sincerely as opposed to being a result of debating to refute?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 2:00 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 3:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 87 of 167 (546408)
02-10-2010 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
02-10-2010 3:33 PM


Re: "Human"
If somebody feels that fertilized egg is a person, and that they should not be intentionally aborted, then you think they should support diverting all medical resources into increasing the survival of the blastocysts that would otherwise naturally fail to implant?
If they think unborn conceptuses are genuine human beings then they should be advocating that medical resources are directed to saving the most human lives. No?
And if they feel that the those blastocysts should be left to those unintentional circumstances, then they should not care about trying to help fully developed people who would die from unintentional circumstances?
"Fully developed people"? Are you saying some humans are more "human" than others? Gosh CS you are on the verge of an epiphany here!
And you've come to these positions sincerely as opposed to being a result of debating to refute?
It may have escaped your attention that I am not the one advocating that conceptuses are human beings. You claim that they are human beings when objecting to abortion whilst simultaneously being utterly apathetic as to the plight of literally billions of biologically identical entities suffering an identical fate through natural causes.
It seems like you are on a moral witch hunt using "human life" as a justification whilst making absolutely no genuine attempt to save the most "human" lives possible. As per your own definition of "human".
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 4:08 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-11-2010 10:20 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 167 (546416)
02-10-2010 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Straggler
02-10-2010 3:48 PM


Re: "Human"
First off, you should know that I think abortion should be legal and one of my reasons for that is because I don't think that a fetus is necessarily a person. I've been trying to help you understand what pro-lifers think, but not actually being one myself.
If they think unborn conceptuses are genuine human beings then they should be advocating that medical resources are directed to saving the most human lives. No?
Not necessarily, no. For one, you're assuming they want to save the most human lives as possible. And secondly, you're not taking into account that they might want to save lives from intentional deaths as opposed to unintentional ones.
"Fully developed people"? Are you saying some humans are more "human" than others? Gosh CS you are on the verge of an epiphany here!
In light of my explanation at the top, you'll see that my epiphany has already been had.
But still, someone could view a fetus as fully human, without having it being fully developed. After birth it still isn't fully developed, but it is a human none-the-less.
You claim that they are human beings when objecting to abortion whilst simultaneously being utterly apathetic as to the plight of literally billions of biologically identical entities suffering an identical fate through natural causes.
Not me personally, but I can see how the claim holds. The big point being whether or not their fate is brought upon them intentionally or not. I do see a distinction between letting someone die from natural causes and intentionally killing them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 3:48 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 89 of 167 (546427)
02-10-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
02-10-2010 4:08 PM


Re: "Human"
First off, you should know that I think abortion should be legal and one of my reasons for that is because I don't think that a fetus is necessarily a person. I've been trying to help you understand what pro-lifers think, but not actually being one myself.
Well no I didn't actually realise that. Fair enough.
Not necessarily, no. For one, you're assuming they want to save the most human lives as possible.
Why wouldn't they? Unless they too realise that some "humans" are not as human as they are in fact claiming.
And secondly, you're not taking into account that they might want to save lives from intentional deaths as opposed to unintentional ones.
The number of unintentional human deaths by natural abortion oustrips the number of medically aborted ones by a colossal factor. If they are primarily out to save lives rather than impose their morality on others and persecute others for their moral choices why do they not embrace that fact and tackle the real cause of "human" death?
In light of my explanation at the top, you'll see that my epiphany has already been had.
Then why don't you point these facts out to Hyro and others who advocate that point of view?
But still, someone could view a fetus as fully human, without having it being fully developed. After birth it still isn't fully developed, but it is a human none-the-less.
In what sense is it "human" in any way that the billions of biologically identical identities unknowingly flushed into the sewars every day are also "human"? Why are those "humans" not worthy of anything but apathy whilst a trivially miniscule minority that are medically aborted cause such violent consternation?
The big point being whether or not their fate is brought upon them intentionally or not. I do see a distinction between letting someone die from natural causes and intentionally killing them.
If billions of toddlers start randomly dying of natural causes do you think anyone would be as blase as they are about billions of conceptuses? "No big deal it's just natural causes. Nobody is intentionally killing them". Would we instead expend all our efforts and resources on the miniscule number of people who set out to intentionally kill toddlers? Or would we put every resource we have into solving the medical problem? Why the massive difference in perspective and emphasis between natural and intentional in the two cases?
Because in reality even the pro-lifers don't really give a shit about the fate of a conceptus in the way that they do about real babies and toddlers. They just use that as an excuse to impose their self righteous moral nonsense on others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2010 4:49 PM Straggler has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 167 (546430)
02-10-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Straggler
02-10-2010 4:33 PM


Re: "Human"
Not necessarily, no. For one, you're assuming they want to save the most human lives as possible.
Why wouldn't they? Unless they too realise that some "humans" are not as human as they are in fact claiming.
Maybe they feel that an innocent pre-born person deserves a chance at life but people who have already had their chance don't need to be unecessarily preserved.
And secondly, you're not taking into account that they might want to save lives from intentional deaths as opposed to unintentional ones.
The number of unintentional human deaths by natural abortion oustrips the number of medically aborted ones by a colossal factor. If they are primarily out to save lives rather than impose their morality on others and persecute others for their moral choices why do they not embrace that fact and tackle the real cause of "human" death?
Because the natural abortions are unintentional and natural but medical abortions are artifical and intentional.
Its the difference between letting someone die of natural causes and actively killing them.
In light of my explanation at the top, you'll see that my epiphany has already been had.
Then why don't you point these facts out to Hyro and others who advocate that point of view?
I didn't have anything to add that hasn't been said. This particular string started by me trying to answer a question that you asked that I didn't see an answer to yet.
But still, someone could view a fetus as fully human, without having it being fully developed. After birth it still isn't fully developed, but it is a human none-the-less.
In what sense is it "human" in any way that the billions of biologically identical identities unknowingly flushed into the sewars every day are also "human"? Why are those "humans" not worthy of anything but apathy whilst a trivially miniscule minority that are medically aborted cause such violent consternation?
Because they are intentionally and artifically killed as opposed to a natural and unintentional death.
If billions of toddlers start randomly dying of natural causes do you think anyone would be as blase as they are about billions of conceptuses? "No big deal it's just natural causes. Nobody is intentionally killing them". Would we instead expend all our efforts and resources on the miniscule number of people who set out to intentionally kill toddlers? Or would we put every resource we have into solving the medical problem? Why the massive difference in perspective and emphasis between natural and intentional in the two cases?
That's just too out there... I don't think pro-lifer see natural abortions as a "medical problem". Plus for them, I think, it is about the immorality of the situation, not just the end result.
Because in reality even the pro-lifers don't really give a shit about the fate of a conceptus in the way that they do about real babies and toddlers. They just use that as an excuse to impose their self righteous moral nonsense on others.
Yeah but they think they're doing the right thing. They'd see you as saying the same as saying all those people who wrote murder laws as imposing their "self righteous moral nonsense on others".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2010 4:33 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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