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Author | Topic: Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Intelligence of cells?.............a spermatozoa will propel itself with microtubuals fluctuating action potentials in its tail. The human muscle fibers fire and release due to biochemical and electrical impulses. biochemistry is biochemistry. What I find interesting is there is fungus that uses a ant to do it's bidding.
Is the fungus intelligent? New Zombie-Ant Fungi Found | Parasites & Mind Control | Live Science Edited by 1.61803, : added question
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder.imo One cell does not a brain make, yet a collective of neurons operating within the collective of bone, muscle, tissue can make create a Iphone. Where is that intelligence if it isn't in our cells? At what level do humans ascribe intelligence to other organisms?And is AI something that is different than "natures" Intelligence? Are we back to this supernatural is natural business?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: Umm-hmmm....so kinda like the neuron and synapses in your brain arent telling you to type that clap trap eh?(kiddin) You just do what you do. At what point then does intelligence emerge? ***I just saw your answer below*** so disregard. : The fungus does not bid the ant to do anything. There is no decision making process in the fungus. The chemicals released by the fungus cause the ant to act in a specific manner. Neither the fungus nor the ant has any choice in the matter. That is what they do, just like a rain drop has no say in falling from a cloud. Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Taq, kinda looks like the immune system cascade charts IL13 and 14 , cytokine soups etc... yes I get it. The immune system as well operates on loop feedbacks and various complex cytokines and cells that direct what happens in our bodies. But to be fair a cockroach can learn what is dangerous and when to come out. Bees learning to recognize faces, moths conditioned to salivate? These organisms have neuro plexes so to speak, but no brain. Yet exhibit some rudimentary intelligence.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
GDR writes: Well it seems what ever it is it is not linked to organism size. It seems to me that by that reasoning elephants should be really smart. What makes one collective smarter than others?Think coral reef or blue whale. Einstein's brain was of average size. So intraspecies brian size it seems is a non starter. It has been postulated that a protein mutation in humans caused our jaw muscles to be smaller thus leaving more room for our noodle. So brain size in primates has some bearing on homonid intelligence. In the first I have no idea, and in the second at the very least AI doesn't make moral choices. Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Nuggin,
I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do. Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force.
It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Taq writes: Well I guess the upregulation of the autonomics? Adrenergic sympathatic discharge? Not sure, but pretty sure nothing to do with the blood brain barrier. If you give someone a large dose of TNF- is it their intelligence that causes them to feel like shit? And yes I agree, single cells dont think. .
[qs=Taq]
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Straggler, I agree with you. You just condensed what I have been thinking. If plants and humans are subject to the same physics, then it stands to reason at some level this phenomenon of intelligence appears. It seems tied to the complexity and development of a brain and nervous system. The ability to have sensory input of our surroundings. The playing field is level, we and other organisms just happen to have better evolved equipment perhaps.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Gravity IQ score = 9.8m/s/s
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Catholic Scientist, I look at things in a sort of "its all one stuff."
attitude. The carbon in sugars of plants is the same carbon we exhale as the same carbon in coal. Now all these things are distinct things with distinct properties but everything is composed of atoms and subject to the laws of physics and intitial conditions. The fact that a plant cant plan ahead and a human can means we are intelligent and they are not. It does not mean the laws of nature have a inherent "innate" intelligence. It means given the right conditions and enough time a thing called intelligence can eventually emerge. Intelligence may simply be a emergent property of matter. Maybe.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
1.61083 writes: The fact that a plant cant plan ahead and a human can means we are intelligent and they are not. It does not mean the laws of nature have a inherent "innate" intelligence. It means given the right conditions and enough time a thing called intelligence can eventually emerge. Intelligence may simply be a emergent property of matter I think your initial premise of single cells having intelligence and tides , the laws of physics having innate intelligence is a bit misguided. Although I do understand the gist of what you mean.I believe your redefining Intelligence is the crux of the disagreement. It does seem fantastic the sublime way nature perpetuates matter and energy into life seems in some sense intelligent. Intelligent by way of meaning humans often are amazed by the seemingly elegant way nature maintains homeostasis. But it is not to say it is intelligent by way of a thinking mind. Rather intelligent by way of a metaphor to describe it.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi NWR, I am not certain of what zi ko finds in my post that are in agreement with his OP. I basically am saying the same thing everyone else seems to be. But for the record I am of the opinion that intelligence requires a thinking brain of some sort. Otherwise the organism is reacting to external stimuli and not "conscious" of its actions. Fungal ant brain infestations resulting in the perpetuation of the fungus included.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
In the cited quotes of Straggler and myself; all we are saying is basically intelligence exist as a result of the physical laws of nature.
NOT the physical laws of nature are intelligent. Do you see the distinction? If not then you will not understand what is wrong with your premise.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hello NWR, if I may cite a article: I think you may find it interesting.
"The Emergence of Intelligence" Scientific American271(4):100-107, October 1994 (December in translation editions), the Life in the Universe special issue. William H. Calvin writes: Why aren't there more species with such complex mental states? There might be a hump to get over: a little intelligence can be a dangerous thing. A beyond-the-apes intelligence must constantly navigate between the twin hazards of dangerous innovation and a conservatism that ignores what the Red Queen explained to Alice in Through the Looking Glass: "...it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place." Foresight is our special form of running, essential for the intelligent stewardship that Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University warns is needed for longer-term survival: "We have become, by the power of a glorious evolutionary accident called intelligence, the stewards of life's continuity on earth. We did not ask for this role, but we cannot abjure it. We may not be suited to it, but here we are." http://williamcalvin.com/1990s/1994SciAmer.htm
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hello NWR,
Your post reminds me of a quote: "Man is rated the highest animal, at least among all animals who returned the questionnaire." ~Robert Brault
NWR writes:
I do not agree with the above statement though. Look at some of what we consider intelligent:We have squandered the fossil fuel reserves that we have discovered; we have acidified the ocean and damaged fisheries; we have destroyed forests; we have allowed the human population to rise to a level that will be difficult to sustain without further damage to our habitat; we have put men on the moon (which does not do anything to help feed the population). None of the above is what we consider intelligent, except perhaps going to the moon which I personally think was a freakin awesome achievement for humanity. Human intelligence is like that thing said in Spiderman.With great power also comes great responsibilty.
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