Summations Only

The human desire for high sugar, high fat food is a product of natural selection. Not all medical problems are due to bad diet. Eating is as natural as seeking shelter. But cheesecake and burgers are as unnatural as apartment blocks.So even if we blame bad eating for all medical ills and even if we apply your parody logic we still find that universal healthcare to prevent and treat medical problems is as justifiable as as a universal fire service to prevent and deal with fires.QED. Or something like that.

Firstly it’s not free. It’s a form of nationalised health insurance. And like ANY insurance scheme (private or otherwise) it consists of a large number of contributors individually paying into the scheme on the basis that they may one day require the scheme to provide for their needs.Secondly - Those of us who advocate universal healthcare are not doing so on the basis of demanding the right to have society pick up the bill for our personal lifestyle choices. We are advocating universal healthcare because we believe it is part of a sane and civilised society.Healthcare is free in the UK. But I cannot even remember the last time I saw a doctor for myself. As a male in the 30-45 age category I, stereotypically, need to have a limb hanging off or be on the verge of death before I’ll visit a doctor. It’s like stopping the car to ask for directions or something.However I have interacted with the UK healthcare system a lot in recent years. Very elderly relatives slowly but inexorably reaching the end of their lives and requiring medical assistance so that they can do so with some dignity intact. Parents in their 60s who are still basically fit and healthy but who have started to require various medications for minor aches and ailments as the pace of age decline starts to become more pronounced. My two little kids who are constantly being checked and immunised so as to avoid future problems as well as being treated for the inevitable playground scrapes and the probably nothing serious but given his age we’d like to keep him in for observation illnesses. Furthermore missus Straggler partakes in these strange, mysterious and (as far as I can tell) predominantly female rituals called things like check-ups and scans. What exactly these entail is anyone’s guess but they are apparently a good thing and have something to do with a strange idea called preventionProbably the single largest benefit I personally get from the free healthcare system in the UK is the peace of mind that those I care for are being well advised and cared for. Frankly this is priceless to me. And I have absolutely no problem with my taxes contributing to provide this insurance to all families across the nation such that health provision is made on the basis of need rather than individual ability to pay. That, after all, is what insurance is supposed to be about.As an outsider the present US system seems to be unjustifiably expensive and barbarically non-inclusive.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This of course applies to ALL insurance schemes. Not just universal ones. ALL insurance schemes consist of a central pool of contributions being allocated out on the basis of need (in the form of claims or provision).Any member of any insurance scheme who acts irresponsibly is arguably behaving in a way that is unfair on the rest of the contributors to that scheme. This isn't specific to universal health insurance. It's true for all forms of insurance.If you want to eliminate this entirely then you would just pay for whatever you need when you need it. Then there is no chance of you having to pay for anyone else's irresponsibility or they yours.Is this what you want? By this logic your healthcare is also "free" if it is paid for by an insurance company. I am guessing that you, like me, have little direct need for healthcare. Are insurance companies paying for that research? Why do you think a universal health care system would stop that research? Do other countries with socilialised health not do medical research?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Should you Yanks ever sort yourselves out and implement a sane and civilised healthcare system the first thing it will need to do is implement a large scale prevention and eduction programme.

So do I. Yet apparently mine is "free" and yours isn't. It would also increase the number contributing to the central pool. Then I guess the rest of us should cheer the fact that many Americans have such shit healthcare provision as the cost of providing medical advances for the rest of the world.Is that what you want? Do you have any foundation for your claim or is it a post hoc justification for your opposition to universal healthcare?

I ate an industrial sized Thai curry for lunch and am currently a bit drunk at work (It's Friday, it's practically obligatory). I just thought both were relevant to your earlier exchange with Frako. Then anybody getting old should be shot before they start being a medical burden.

So do I. But "free at the point of delivery" doesn't mean it's "free". We have national insurance contributions.If I get a new bike through my bike insurance after having one stolen it's technically "free at the point of delivery" but I still pay insurance premiums.

Are you suggesting I don't?

Children. Disabled people. The elderly. Terrible..... Show me these "fatties" crying for free healthcare. Or are you going down the Buz route of being so fucking insane as to make Oni's parodies look respectable? I don't have any idea what this means. Communist!! What about all those fatties you are gonna have to subsidise?

Yes you are.

Actually - I probably will. That is what Missus Straggler says about my post jog sweatiness. It's all a matter of perspective.... You've discovered a cure for aging? Immortality awaits us all!!! Praise Dark Oni....

Dude - Seriously - She has the nose of a fucking sommelier (a "wine taster" to me and you). A bit of fat - No prob. A bead of sweat - WHOOP WHOOP WHHOOOOP. Alarm bells and no Straggler lovetime fun. "Age" is just a euphemism for "approach death". By definition you cannot be healthy as you approach death.Death is unhealthy.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

In the UK we have a good number of specialist research hospitals that also provide care. In fact providing care to those whose medical conditions they specialise in would seem rather fundamental to their research activities.I am not sure what the hell CS's point is on this....

So what would you propose as the fairest, best and most cost effective way of providing healthcare to the citizens of the US? Do you think the present system is fine as it is? If not what would you change? Or if designing a national health policy in a debate forum is an unfair thing to ask (which I admit it might be) what do you think is wrong with the present system? And why do you think the present system has these issues?

Any healthcare system would work perfectly in the absence of any people that need healthcare. Including no healthcare system at all. I'm not sure that is a realistic or appropriate benchmark.It's like saying schools would run perfectly without any pupils. Pointlessly tautological. But Oni that would involve interference in the free-market miracle of providing people with what they want on the basis of what sells best.We are evolutionarily programmed to seek out high fat, high sugar foods. So how are we going to tackle this deep seated natural instinct whilst simultaneously obeying the free-market fundamentalist dream that what people desire and are willing to pay for will result in the best overall result for all involved?Something has to give doesn't it?Why do you think America in particular suffers from the obesity problems you highlight? And are these same problems increasingly endemic in other countries pursuing the same socio-economic model?