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Author | Topic: Can the Christian God exist without the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hooah212002 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
But then, in the quotation from Hawkins' post, what are the "infallible reference" and the earthly authority, other than an attempt to appeal to evidence ? True. Then I suppose I take issue with both conclusions insofar as they dela with faith/belief, but will in no way attempt to reach my own. Faith and belief isn't my Matt Forte, and any further comment will likely result in snark and banishment from moose or PD.
but I have a special difficulty with a faith which claims that other faiths are demonstrably incorrect, because the first faith's book is the best book. Don't they all say/do that? Even Christian church A does it to Christian church B and random Christian A does it to random Christian B, so on and so forth."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Don't they all say/do that? Even Christian church A does it to Christian church B and random Christian A does it to random Christian B, so on and so forth. A lot of the time, definitely. I do take some comfort from fairly recent attempts at dialogue and co-operation between the Anglican church and the Muslim Council, but a lot of the time, you're absolutely right - there is a lot of cross-religion/cross-denominational conflict over differing views. And I retain a special difficulty with this, particularly when, at the heart of many of those religions/denominations' teachings are love, deference, tolerance and respect.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hawkins writes:
You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.
There are 2 kind of gods. One demands your faith, the other not. As for the gods who never demanded your faith, their existence has nothing to do with you. Hawkins writes:
It "happens" to fit the criteria because you reverse-engineered the criteria to fit it. If you honestly thought about what a God "should" do, you might come to a very different conclusion. You might even realize that a supposedly infallible source is a pretty bad idea.
It happens that Christianity is such a religion....
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.
=============================================== That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do. In a nutshell, He cares only about His sheep. And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 763 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer... As long as 1/3 or more of humans consider themselves sheep, we aren't going to make much progress, are we?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you believe in some God that cares only about His sheep then you believe in a God that is unworthy of my respect or worship and that quite frankly, one that as a Christian I must oppose.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
If you believe in some God that cares only about His sheep then you believe in a God that is unworthy of my respect or worship and that quite frankly, one that as a Christian I must oppose.
====================================== If you like a Shepherd feeding His sheep to wolves, be my guest. "Sheep" is an analogy showing that a Shepherd can't love both the wolves and the sheep at the same time. Either He leave the wolves in poverty for the love of the sheep, or feed them with the sheep for the love of the wolves. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hawkins writes:
You're the one who said there are only two possible kinds of god. I'm just adding another assumption to yours.
That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do. Hawkins writes:
What about the other 2/3? How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?
And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but as a Christian I must point out to you that the god you are trying to market is just plain evil and unworthy of my respect but certainly worthy of my contempt.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?
============================================ By analysis you can tell, from multiple perspective including what the nature of history is and how many gods understand this nature. Moreover, there's nothing 100% guaranteed that's why faith is needed. Here, I already excluded personal experience which you never buy into. Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question, does afterlife exist? It's reflection of your faith whether your answer is a yes or no. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
Sorry but as a Christian I must point out to you that the god you are trying to market is just plain evil and unworthy of my respect but certainly worthy of my contempt.
=========================== On the other hand, that usually is based on your own interpretation and mostly your own intelligence which you don't have the capability to doubt about. This can be told even from your own wording, "you are trying to market" don't assume so! In the end, it's your own life which only you would care. If you don't no one will. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hawkins writes:
No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either. There might be a solution to the global warming problem or their might not be. I have no "belief" one way or the other. No faith is required.
Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question, does afterlife exist?
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either.
================================== Let me make it more obvious for you. Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth. So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence? Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hawkins writes:
I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy. I certainly would NOT adopt a life-long belief that there was a bomb without some real evidence. Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth. So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence? That's the same approach that I take with claims about God. Unless I have some evidence, how do I know which god is going to punish me for believing in the wrong god?
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1402 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy.
================================================ The margin is how you evaluation "when the bomb will blast". You behave so because the truth can only come with the bomb blasted or not. You don't risk when there's a chance that "it is the moment that it will blasted". So you decision "to leave" or "to stay" is made based on the blasting line. The analogy here is the question that what drives your decision at the moment that the bomb will blast anytime. The two option is to leave by recognize its chance, or to stay as a belief that it's a hoax. Waiting for evidence is not an option because you have only one life to loose. That's the point of the analogy. In reality the moment of the blast is the moment of your death. So before this "blasting line", "not believe" and "not disbelieve" doesn't seem to be an option, may be you've already made up your mind to disbelieve, instead of "not disbelieve". Moreover, it doesn't make sense that at the moment right before one's death, he still in between belief and disbelief. Most likely he's already chosen to disbelieve, that's he doesn't need to worry. This is however a sub-conscious decision.
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