Importance of Original Sin

He also told Thomas to test the evidence.

He did:

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John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

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Believe the evidence first. If there is no evidence you can believe the woo-woo.

How?By shouting "Lord, lord"?, by woo and nonsense like Original Sin or being saved or by actually doing what Jesus told us to do?

That's true. And look at Thomas's reaction - calling Jesus his Lord and his God.But more importantly to me is what Jesus felt to ADD to his challenge for Thomas to perform empirical test. Read it CAREFULLY -

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"Then He said to Thomas, Bring our finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and so not be unbelieving, but believing." (John 20:27)

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Perform your scientific test Thomas. You demanded empirical evidence and a scientific test. When you do it "DO NOT BE UNBELIEVING, BUT BELIEVING"In other words it is also a matter of the human will. There's a saying "A perform convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.""BE ... believing." This has to mean that there was still the CHOICE for Thomas to make to BE unbelieving if he really wanted to.That's where a lot of people are. They simply will not be believing. They don't want to be changed by God. God is into changing lives.Well, Jesus also informs Thomas that not everyone in the world is going to be able to do such an experiment. Some will have to believe the word of God in the New Testament -

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"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

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Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

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Hallelujah ringo. I GOT THE BLESSING !! Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

He told us to ABIDE IN HIM. Doing what He told us to do is to realize He is AVAILABLE and to get into the realm of Jesus and remain, linger, and ABIDE in Him.Calling on the name of the Lord Jesus helps that abiding. And it is not only our faith. That is half the story. The other have is the FAITHFULNESS of Christ.Our faith PLUS His being FAITHFUL. That's the path to reality.

Original Sin. How important is Original Sin ?That may be arguable. But I wager there is NO ONE reading this discussion who does not have the same kind of experience that Paul discribes he had in Romans chapter 7, particularly verses 7 through 24.Show me a man or woman, boy or girl, who says they do not have the same experience of Paul in Romans 7-24 and I'll show you a liar.

A Good Hymn on Adam and Christ which speaks of the practical application of the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ to overcome the effects of the fallen Adamic nature of sin inherited from the fall of Adam.This is about freedom from sinfulness found in enjoying Christ in the regenerated spirit which becomes one with the Holy Spirit in the born again experience:

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All I have in Adam is but sin and death,
I in Christ inherit life and righteousness;
When in flesh abiding, Adam I express,
But when in the spirit Christ I manifest.

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When I am in Adam, though I may not sin,
Unto death, a sinner, sentenced I have been;
When in Christ I need not righteously to act,
I'm already righteous, justified in fact.

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In the flesh I need no effort to express
Marks of Adam's nature and its sinfulness;
In the spirit I need not to strive or strain,
I can live as He is and in spirit reign.

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Thru my death with Christ, from Adam I am free,
Thru my life with Christ, new life is given me!
Minding not the flesh, old Adam cannot move.
Minding just the spirit, life divine I prove.

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Minding just the spirit is God's saving way,
Minding just the spirit, Christ we will display;
Minding just the spirit, we can overcome,
Minding just the spirit, we the race may run.

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Minding just the spirit, we the cross will know,
And His resurrection power thru us will flow.
Minding just the spirit, Christ will live thru me.
And His life within will reach maturity.

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In the spirit Christ is life and all to me.
Strengthening and blessing all-inclusively;
Living in the spirit, holiness I prove,
And the triune God within my heart doth move."

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[Hymn # 593, Living Stream Ministry - Hymns, Witness Lee ]

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I presented an alternate view of the importance of original sin in a previous post: Message 316I think it is one of the most evil ideas ever to come from the fevered mind of a shaman.

Doing what he told us to do is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant. It is to kneel down when talking to children so you are at their level, to smile and say hi to the stranger, to put the carts in the return at the store, to hold the door open for those encumbered.What you try to market is simply a worthless cop-out.There is no path to reality, reality is the path.

Ayn Rand ? Tell me, Ayn Rand carried on an affair with one of her students. When the handsome young pupil decided to dump her, she turned on him with all the intellectual power she could muster to declare him some kind of enemy of her philosophical truth. Ouch!Sounds like sour grapes disguised in philosophy to me.Now I think she was a great story teller. I like Anthem. I like The Fountain Head. I know the stories. I have not read completely through either book.But if I recall, Ayn Rand argued that for two people to have intimate relations with each other who were committed already to marriage to someone else - was a rational act.If you neighbor cheats his/her spouse and commits adultery with yours, do you agree with Ms. Rand that that is a "rational act" ?Ms Rand continues: I don't think the capacity for sexual enjoyment came only AFTER the disobedience of Adam.The desire for pleasure should have been indicated in the CREATED man in that God placed in the garden "every tree that was pleasant to the sight ...". I don't think they only derived pleasure to behold AFTER the disobedience of Adam. Rather Adam was created with an enjoying organ - his human soul.Neither do I agree that Adam was that "robot in the Garden of Eden." Quite the opposite is witnessed in that he had responsibility to make his OWN choice. Had he been a robot there would have been no need for God to warn him about wrong choices.Now I would believe that a part of his being had not been awakened to function. This would regard something of the human conscience. And its awakening seems to me to be a kind of breaking system such that if something should go wrong in his choice - this internal breaking system of his awakened conscience would at least LIMIT the downward decline into further rotten choices in behavior.I don't mean it would totally halt the degradation but restrain it somewhat - limit its influence. That is given that some men and women would listen to their conscience.History indicates that some listen and some do not. And sometimes you and I listen to conscience and at other times we don't. And sometimes we argue with the conscience or try to bribe it to shut up. That means we do something ELSE good in a hope that what it told us and we ignored, we can get away with."I will not listen to you conscience. But I will do something ELSE which is good in the hope that concerning THIS thing you will leave me alone."But the conscience doesn't listen to arguments very well. It knows what it knows what it knows - period. It won't argue with you. And it will catch up with you to either finally condemn you or even commend you.The redemption of Jesus Christ puts the conscience at final rest with one's self and with God.From Ayn Rand and her adultery - Ayn Rand and her adultery - Ethics - Objectivism Online Forum

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To my surprise, I learned that he and Rand had an longstanding affair while they were both married to other people. I was shocked to learn this, and even more surprised to learn that Rand terminated her friendship with Branden when she learned that he was with another women (after divorcing his wife and ending his relationship with Rand) against her wishes.

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I always believed that someone who considers themselves to be an Objectivist, especially the founder herself, would be morally against adultery. Yes, I understand that Rand believed Branden to be her, for lack of a better term, soul mate, but by cheating on her husband, isn't that disrespectful to her husband and herself? Not to mention, I assume that Rand had to believe that, until she met Branden, her sould mate was her current husband otherwise she wouldn't of married him. If she chose to be married to her husband, does he not deserve the right to be informed of an affair? How could he be convinced to go along with it? Not to mention, it seems hypocritical of Rand to cut Branden out of her life when she learned of his relationship with another woman after her. For all she knew, Branden could have thought the third women was his soul mate, more so than Rand. Shoudn't Rand respect his decision?

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Those are your words, not the Bible's words. What Jesus said was to test the evidence so that you will believe. He didn't suggest that you'd have to make an effort to believe after seeing the evidence. Then you'll be blessed for believing in unicorns too.

I call shenanigans. You've just twisted that story to fit with what you want it to say.Thomas just stuck his finger in the hole in Jesus' hands. You can't get any more direct proof than that. Thomas had no choice to believe, it was proven to him instead.I can't believe that you'd take something so blatantly obvious and turn it completely around to say exactly the opposite of what it is saying.That's pretty messed up.

I assume that Thomas performed the proof. It really is not totally clear that he did. It is IS clear that the doubter changed his mind and confessed Jesus the man as Lord and God.As for me twisting the story ? Every word of Jesus Christ is exceedingly significant - "And do not be unbelieving, but believing" was not written there just to fill out the space on the scroll.Thomas still could have doubted. In fact some STILL did doubt even in Matthew 28:17 after His resurrection - "And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him, though some doubted." I am sensative to miss munipulating any Bible passage. But I don't think I have done so with John 20:27.Judas Iscariot was witness to all the speeches, all the miracles, all the signs as the other apostles. He chose not to believe and we never calling Jesus as Lord. Verse 27 strongly implies that Thomas, at that point, had a choice. Perhaps what you do not comprehend here is that understanding WHO Jesus is is something that results in a PERSONAL transformation. It was not a purely objective matter which did not touch Thomas's life.What was to believed was that this Christ was HIS [Thomas's] Lord and God.He is RISEN to be YOUR Lord, to be MY Lord.

That is right. He accommodated Thomas. Not everyone will receive that same accommodation that Jesus allowed doubting Thomas. Not an "effort" as much as a surrender.In the final scene of the those lost forever, it lists some of the reprentative reasons some people will perish.Read carefully -

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"But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolators and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

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Before the Bible mentions the "unbelieving" it means "the cowardly" . I think this means that some men believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but because of fear of something, perhaps fear of losing face or reputation or the gaining the displeasure of other people, they are cowards to receive Him as Lord.Ie. - The cowardly - really know the truth about the Son of God, but FEAR to receive Christ as Lord-Savior. The unbelieving simply do not believe.Christ's words were not idle. They were significant. Having been presented with an infallible proof, Thomas still was exhorted to be not unbelieving, but believing. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Did you ever bother researching a little about Lewis and his use of logical fallacies? Or is learning not really that important?The whole faith trumps evidence thing?