Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 90 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2018 3:17 AM
191 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 188 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,918 Year: 18,741/29,783 Month: 686/2,043 Week: 238/386 Day: 2/95 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
80NextFF
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 1198 (633132)
09-12-2011 4:57 PM


Over in the thread Why prefer the Biblical creation account over those of other religions?, Message 133, I inquired about the necessity of the story in Genesis about Eve taking part in the eating of an apple and being tricked by a talking snake and the role of this portion is the whole reason for jesus. It was my understanding that this story is told to explain why we are dirty vile sinners in need of redemption; even at birth, thus the necessity for the jesus character.

Now, I'm no bible scholar, so I can't think of any other bible story that would explain why we are born with sin. In my mind, this story is "the fall" and is the entire reason we even started sinning in the first place, what with Adam and Eve being god's perfect creations and all.

If this story is not vital at all to the necessity of the jesus character, how does one explain it? Is there some other reason we are natural sinners in need of salvation?

{abe}
I did do a forum search with "original sin" in the title and came up emptyhanded. If someone else finds a suitable existing thread that this could be discussed in, that would be fine too.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Typos


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jaywill, posted 09-13-2011 5:42 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-13-2011 10:37 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 23 by kbertsche, posted 09-13-2011 10:48 AM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 55 by Bailey, posted 09-18-2011 5:27 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 09-19-2011 10:26 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 1198 (633134)
09-12-2011 5:50 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Importance of Original Sin thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 1198 (633136)
09-12-2011 6:13 PM


Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
The concept of Original Sin as marketed in many of the chapters of Club Christian is a strange beast, based on taking a couple verses from Paul out of context (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22), is not found in Judaism at all and was first marketed in the Second Century AD.

For most folk including many chapters of Club Christian including the Roman Catholic Church, Original sin is simply the general trend of all humans to screw up and something handled by honest evaluation of your behavior, admitting when you do screw up, being sorry that you screwed up, trying to make amends and trying not to make the same mistake in the future.

But Original Sin as marketed in many other chapters of Club Christian is a cheap and handy cop-out, it's not the individual's fault, because someone else screwed up they were born sinful ...

BUT WAIT THERE's MORE...

IF you join in the next fifteen minutes you will get your "Born Again" certificate and "Saved by the Blood of the Lamb" t-shirt...

AND you will also get your Glow in the Dark Get Outta Hell free card.

The fact is that Paul never mentions which passages from the Old Testament stories he is referencing and when you read the passages they quote it certainly doesn't seem to apply to the Genesis 2&3 myth. It might be possible to make a case that he is referring to the Cain and Able story but again, that only would apply to descendants of Cain which really looks more like the Farmer Cattleman battles and the fight over open range.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 7:57 PM jar has responded
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 10-13-2013 11:22 AM jar has responded
 Message 549 by jaywill, posted 12-03-2013 8:24 AM jar has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 1198 (633152)
09-12-2011 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
09-12-2011 6:13 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
based on taking a couple verses from Paul out of context (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22),

Both of those passages refer to one of those two characters (Adam or Eve) and how they caused the sin.

For most folk including many chapters of Club Christian including the Roman Catholic Church, Original sin is simply the general trend of all humans to screw up and something handled by honest evaluation of your behavior, admitting when you do screw up, being sorry that you screwed up, trying to make amends and trying not to make the same mistake in the future.

Ok, so in this trend, the god character created us flawed? We were doomed from the start? He created us with the need for the jesus character and the need for salvation?

But Original Sin as marketed in many other chapters of Club Christian is a cheap and handy cop-out, it's not the individual's fault, because someone else screwed up they were born sinful ...

Well....duh. Jesus died for our sin. Where did the sin come from, then? I thought god was happy with his alleged creation?

The fact is that Paul never mentions which passages from the Old Testament stories he is referencing and when you read the passages they quote it certainly doesn't seem to apply to the Genesis 2&3 myth. It might be possible to make a case that he is referring to the Cain and Able story but again, that only would apply to descendants of Cain which really looks more like the Farmer Cattleman battles and the fight over open range.

Can you explain what Paul has to do with this? I'm not being argumentative, I just really don't know why you mention th epaul character in this vein.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 7:58 PM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-06-2011 5:33 PM hooah212002 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 5 of 1198 (633153)
09-12-2011 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 7:57 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Well, how do you know they refer to either or Adam or Eve?

Let's figure that out first.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 7:57 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:06 PM jar has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 6 of 1198 (633154)
09-12-2011 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
09-12-2011 7:58 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
You mentioned Romans 5:12-21:

Romans 5:14 writes:

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Emphasis mine. You also mention 1 Corinthians 15:22:

1 Corinthians 15:22 writes:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive

jar writes:

Well, how do you know they refer to either or Adam or Eve?

Because that's what it says. If there is a different version that doesn't say adam, I'm all ears. Like I said, I'm the furthest thing from a bible scholar. I just know the xianity that I know, was raised around, heard in the church I went to, and see all around me. The way it looks to me is that it is commonly understood that eve was tricked by a talking snake into eating an apple from a tree and god went on his spiel about birthing pains and adam working the soil and whatnot; original sin, we are all doomed because of that dumb broad.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 7:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 8:23 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 7 of 1198 (633157)
09-12-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 8:06 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Read what you quoted and emphasized.

Then go read the actual stories.

Is Adam the pattern of Jesus? Reading the story in Genesis 2&3 I cannot see that.

Second, if Paul is claiming that death entered through Adam, then again, Paul is simply wrong. Death exists before Adam is even created and can be seen because in the story, God creates the Tree of Life. If death did not already exist then there is no point to even create a Tree of Life.

Also, go back and read the story in Genesis 2&3. Yes, there are specific curses placed on Adam, Eve and the serpent, but the curses are precisely listed. It is only those things that got passed down and not one of them deals with Original Sin.

In addition, until after Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, there was no way they could even sin. Until they had a knowledge of right and wrong they had no way to even know they should obey one authority figure over another.

Still with me?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:06 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:38 PM jar has responded
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 09-18-2011 3:33 AM jar has responded
 Message 282 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-23-2012 2:16 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 8 of 1198 (633161)
09-12-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-12-2011 8:23 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Is Adam the pattern of Jesus?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Second, if Paul is claiming that death entered through Adam, then again, Paul is simply wrong. Death exists before Adam is even created and can be seen because in the story, God creates the Tree of Life. If death did not already exist then there is no point to even create a Tree of Life.

Good point. I hadn't looked at it or thought of it that way.

Also, go back and read the story in Genesis 2&3. Yes, there are specific curses placed on Adam, Eve and the serpent, but the curses are precisely listed. It is only those things that got passed down and not one of them deals with Original Sin.

This is also a good point, one that is perhaps lost (or apologetically waved away) by many.

Until they had a knowledge of right and wrong they had no way to even know they should obey one authority figure over another.

I'm not about to get into apologetics (because it's a fkin fairy tale anyways) but they were instructed first to NOT eat from it, so you could say they disobeyed the first person (god) that gave them an order.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 8:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 8:43 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 9 of 1198 (633163)
09-12-2011 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 8:38 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Does a good parent punish an infant because it disobeys before the child is old enough to understand right from wrong?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:38 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:54 PM jar has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 10 of 1198 (633165)
09-12-2011 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-12-2011 8:43 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
I completely agree with you that the idea of original sin is fucking retarded. But that doesn't mean that those crazy christians don't buy it.....

You seemed to make the claim (in the other thread) that christians don't actually believe in original sin as I thought it to be. Now, it seems, you are just saying how stupid it is. I, too, think it's stupid....but I'm an atheist so my opinion on the matter means fuck all.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 8:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 9:01 PM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 14 by Coyote, posted 09-12-2011 10:30 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 11 of 1198 (633166)
09-12-2011 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 8:54 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Remember, I am a Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:54 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 9:10 PM jar has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 12 of 1198 (633167)
09-12-2011 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
09-12-2011 9:01 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Remember, I am a Christian.

With a pretty atheistic stance on the bible and religion. So tell me, if not for "original sin" (as described in this thread and accepted by almost all other xians), why jesus? What was his primary reason for coming to earth? Where did the sin come from?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 9:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 10:28 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 09-13-2011 7:41 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 13 of 1198 (633177)
09-12-2011 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 9:10 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Actually, I'm pretty much middle road Christian at least in the Anglican Communion.

What sin?

Sin comes from doing things wrong. We screw up, don't always live up to either expectations or what we are capable of.

Are you familiar with the Days of Atonement?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 9:10 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 14 of 1198 (633178)
09-12-2011 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 8:54 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
I think the entire concept of original sin is about the most evil idea ever cooked up in the fevered minds of shamans.

In this I agree with Ayn Rand, who devotes a page or so in Atlas Shrugged to the subject.

Humans need to evolve beyond that type of thinking if we are going to get anywhere.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:54 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 15 of 1198 (633216)
09-13-2011 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 4:57 PM


Over in the thread Why prefer the Biblical creation account over those of other religions?, Message 133, I inquired about the necessity of the story in Genesis about Eve taking part in the eating of an apple and being tricked by a talking snake and the role of this portion is the whole reason for jesus.

The necessity of Genesis important not simply for explaining sin. Before this it is important for explaining the creation of man by God. Before sin and death come into the picture in chapter 3, two words are important about man in chapter one - image and dominion.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Gen. 1:26,27)

IMAGE and DOMINION. These two words are important in understanding the reason for the creation of man. Much could be said. But basically:

1.) Man is in some way to EXPRESS God, look like God, manifest God and portray God.

2.) Man is to reign on behalf of God. Man is to excercise dominion over God's creation as a "deputy authority" on behalf of God.

Before any negative element of sin and death come in to spoil man God created man in His own image and with the intent that man would excercise dominion over the creation of God as a deputy authority for God.

There is much more to come of course.


It was my understanding that this story is told to explain why we are dirty vile sinners in need of redemption; even at birth, thus the necessity for the jesus character.

Now to the matter of the entrance of sin and death to man.

You should notice a few things. Firstly, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not only a tree of the knowledge of evil. Both good and evil are associated with the tree.

I say this to highlight that the fundamental problem is not that of being bad or doing evil things. Before that there is the problem of man being independent from God, taking knowledge for the purpose of acting independently from God, apart from God.

This was not the tree of dirt gambling or the tree of dirty moview or the tree of dirty stealing PRIMARILY. It was a tree for man to withdraw from God and be independent from God.

From the problem of man withdrawing from God FOLLOWS death, dirtiness, and sin.

God is eternal life. And death is more defiling and hateful to God then sin. Sin is an abomination to God. And sin needs forgiveness, cleansing, and stain removal from the character of man. But death is called "the last enemy" (1 Cor. 15:26)

"Death, the last enemy, is being abolished"

Death is the final enemy of God who is eternal and uncreated divine life. And the first warning of God to man about taking in the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was that he would die.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

Death, I think, is more hateful to God than sin. But both sin and death are overcome in the salvation of God through Jesus Christ.


Now, I'm no bible scholar, so I can't think of any other bible story that would explain why we are born with sin. In my mind, this story is "the fall" and is the entire reason we even started sinning in the first place, what with Adam and Eve being god's perfect creations and all.

You don't have to be a scholar but a humble reader with and open heart and a willingness to be changed by God, is more important.

Notice that there were TWO trees specically mentioned. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From the rest of the Bible we can learn that God's eternal purpose in creating man was that man is a VESSEL, a "God shaped" living container. And the content that God sought to dispense into this living container was Himself as eternal life.

The tree of life represented God dispensing Himself into man as life. That is into the container of man's created life God would pour Himself as the uncreated divine life. The tree of life represents God Himself coming into man that man and God may be mingled and united as one.

Before God could dispense Himself into man as life from the tree of life - God's enemy rushed ahead to imitate God's way. Satan dispensed the Satanic nature into man and man became united with Satan. Man became Satanified.

Remember before I said that "dominion" was one of the purposes for which God created man.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have DOMINION ..." (Gen. 1:26)

Now I complete the picture a little more for you. God created man in His IMAGE as a kind of living vessel - a container. And He placed man before the tree of life. This represented that the man created in a "God shaped" manner was to receive God Himself into his human vessel. This is the eternal purpose of God.

Man in God's image with God Himself united with man was for the kingdom of God - which included the defeat of any enemy of God. I believe that dominon over the creeping things in Genesis 1:26) implies dominion over the devil, his rebellious angels and the demons. This opposition party was apparently already nearby lurking to ruin God's purpose.

Instead of man being united with God through the tree of life, he chose wrongly and Satan, sin and death entered into man corrupting man to the uttermost. But God would not give up man.

And the rest of the Bible is the story of His great salvation to bring man back to Himself and to His eternal purpose. And He accomplishes this in the end through the dynamic salvation of Christ the Son of God.


If this story is not vital at all to the necessity of the jesus character, how does one explain it? Is there some other reason we are natural sinners in need of salvation?

I told you above the there were two trees in the garden particularly mentioned.

"And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasnt to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9)

These two trees represented two paths or two sources.
One, the tree of life, represent the source of God Himself.
The other, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, represents the enemy of God, Satan as a source.

This understanding requires the rest of the revelation of the Bible. Since the Bible's revelation is progressive, the clarity of this matter unfolds as the Bible progresses.

Man is neutral and innocent in between TWO sources of existence. Man is not created evil. Man was very good. But man is innocent and between two paths of which he must choose. One is to unite with God. And the other is to draw away in a thrust of independence from God.

All lives are dependent. Only God Himself is totally independent and autonomous. All other created beings must be dependent upon the Creator. To withdraw from this dependence is death. And it is to fall into the hands of the Rebel, the Devil. This one is temporary. He has no eternal future. He is to be destroyed. But he was very ancient and predated the creation of man.

The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels - " ... Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41b)

The eternal "trash can" of the "eternal fire" was created not for man but for the devil and his angels. So man needs to be saved from being joined to Satan or he will end up where his leader ends up. We will go with our leader - either with the Son of God to His glorious eternal destiny to express God and reign for God or with the devil to the eternal punishment for his sins and his bringing death into God's creation.


I did do a forum search with "original sin" in the title and came up emptyhanded. If someone else finds a suitable existing thread that this could be discussed in, that would be fine too.

The term is not in the Bible. Actually the term "the Fall" is also not in the Bible. There is really a successive series of falls in Genesis. But the theological concept of "the Fall" is used by Bible students. And the theological concept of "Original Sin" though not a biblical term, is used by some Bible students.

If we did talk about Original Sin we could also talk about Original Righteousness. For it is Christ's act of obedience which saves man from Adam's act of disobedience.

I have heard a lot of mention of "Original Sin". I have not heard much mention of "Original Righteousness". But Romans chapter five compares Adam and Christ as the TWO important heads of the human race. Adam and Christ are the two Originals who set the course of either man's downfall or man's salvation.

Christ is called "the second man". And Christ is called "the last Adam" . And this last Adam became in a form, after His resurrection, in which He could enter into man as divine life:

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

So the second man, the last Adam, not only went to the cross to accomplish redemption from sin. He also resurrected bodily and became in addition a life giving Spirit - the Christ Who can come into man as eternal life. The Spirit of Christ can enter into our innermost being to live in us.

He is the reality today of the tree of life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 4:57 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
1
23456
...
80NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018