Importance of Original Sin

Yea. You want to play stupid ? Sure, a prophecy about sheep and goats."Bleep Bleep !"
"Baah Baah !"
Woolly sheep.Don't actually READ what it says - "And all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, JUST AS THE SHEPHERD SEPARATES THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS.

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AND HE WILL SET THE SHEEP [ people from NATIONS] ON HIS RIGHT HAND ... etc. etc. " It is a prophecy. And I sure won't send anyone to you to learn anything from the Holy Scriptures.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You keep missing the first clues. The talking snake is your first clue that Genesis 3 is not history. The sheep and goats are your first clue that Matthew 25 is not a literal event.We could infer some significance from the sheep and the goats. There could be a parallel between the goats and the scapegoat in the Old Testament. We could note that sheep are natural followers and will follow each other whether there's a shepherd present or not; as Paul said, the Gentiles follow their consciences whether they know the Jewish God or not.I wouldn't personally make too much of the sheep/goat terminology. I think its primary purpose is just to distinguish the two groups.

Potential brothers at least. We teach that they need salvation, while jar thinks that just by doing good works they may catch the spirit of the message. After reading Pope Francis, I am no longer in disagreement about the importance of works simply for the sake of inner spiritual fulfillment---I might add that if by doing good works one had the right spirit, they couldn't help but accept Jesus Christ. The thing I also disagree with jar on is the idea that accepting Jesus (as alive today) is unimportant.

You know, hundreds of millions of believers in other religions would feel quite insulted by that. Like good works can only be done by Christians. You really need to look outside your little bubble.(And just for completeness, us atheists are also capable of doing nice things, in between our raping and eating babies of course.)

Comparatively. It's still a yoke and a burden. Did you even read your own quotation? It says that creation was made that way, that it was, "not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it." Man was created "fallen". I did read what you said. I'm asking you for confirmation: Do you consider yourself exempt from God's judgement?Do you consider yourself one of the angels that accompany the Son of man to the judgement?

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Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

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But you do seem to be saying that you're judged by a different standard. It says that all nations - i.e. all people - are either sheep or goats. The only other group present is the angels. The greek word angelos refers to messengers - i.e. servants, not brothers.

Sometimes your opponents do all the heavy lifting!

Besides the angels of God WHO else is likely to descend with Christ to the Holy Land ?We are told that Jesus comes "with all His saints" (1 Thess. 3:13).

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"So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints."
(1 Thess. 3:13)

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I wrote this before. Some readers probably got it.Now, Jesus has saved millions of people down through the ages. So there are millions upon millions of "saints". Does this passage mean that Jesus will descend to earth with all of them ?Probably not. But He will select those thus REWARDED to participate in this glorious descent. And this is prove in too many places for me to expound in one post. But I will mention one or two important mentionings.The army of saints that accompany Jesus down and into the battle of Armegeddon are the "called and chosen and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

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These [followers of Antichrist] have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast [Antichrist].

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These will make war with the Lamb, [Jesus Christ] and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:13,14)

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The saints who come with Christ to fight against the armies of Antichrist are the "called". But not only "called" but also "chosen". But they are not ONLY called and chosen. They themselves have added something - "FAITHFUL".The called + chosen + FAITHFUL are a remnant of overcoming saints. They are not the total number of saints saved. But the number of saints who were deemed "faithful" to the merciful calling and choosing of God.Are all Christians going to be deemed "faithful" ?
No.
Many Christians may be redeemed, forgiven, and recipients of the gift of eternal life. But not all will be deemed "faithful" in their responsibility to enjoy the new covenant grace to be overcomers.So for Jesus to come "with all His saints" should mean that He comes with the remnant of overcoming saints whom He has judged as being faithful.This is amply confirmed where Jesus promises the reward of co-reigning WITH Him to those who overcome. Says Christ to the church in Thyatira:

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" And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father ..." (Rev. 2:26,27)

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As Jesus will do, He also grants that His overcomers will do. This is their reward. And it is not for simply being saved. It is not for simply being a Christian. This reward to do as He will do, is for those who LIVED as He LIVED, overcoming by the inward life of God.These will ACCOMPANY Jesus down specifically to shepherd the nations with a "iron rod" which symbolizes strong governmental power.Stated in another way, we see a Bride accompanying Christ as an army in Revelation 19. You must read the whole chapter. I only quote a portion here.

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"Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

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And it was given to her that she should clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [sic] of the saints. (Rev. 19:7,8)

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And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows by Himself. And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood.; and His name is called the Word of God.

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And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

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And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of God the Almighty. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev. 19:11-16)

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Important points:1.) The wife of Christ is said to have made HERSELF ready - "His wife has made herself ready." So this preparation is not automatic upon simply being saved. A remnant among the total number of Christians follow on to make themselves ready for Christ's marriage.2.) The making of herself ready is with the RIGHTEOUSNESSES[sic] of the saints. Some Bibles translate this as righteous deeds of the saints.This preparation is made by deeds, behaviors, righteousness- ES of the saints. This is the practical living out of Christ as righteousness. This is not the readiness of only a righteous standing positionally. But it is the preparation of having lived out righteous deeds.The preparation does not refer to ANY unbelievers but only Christians. But yet this wife can only be a remnant of overcoming Christians who have lived out a normal Christian life of righteousness-ES - righteous deeds.3.) The wife's wedding garment is ALSO the armies' fighting armor. Compare the wedding garment of the wife to the fighting armor of the army with Christ - " ... for the fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [sic] of the saints. (v.8) "And the armies which are in heaven followed HIm on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (v.14) The wedding garment is equal to the fighting garment.
That which constituted her to be a wife also constituted her to be an accompanying army with Jesus.When Jesus comes down out of heaven He is therefore accompanied to the battle and the reigning with a remnant of overcoming victors. They are especially rewarded to be with Him. Many other verses can confirm this.But based upon these few we have the full ground to say that in Matthew 25:31-46 besides the sheep [people] and the goat [people] from the nations BEFORE Christ's throne there are those who are WITH Him - angels and an overcoming bridal army of saints.The ones who came with Him are ALL His brothers because they share the same divine life of their one Father.One more proof is given. After the millennial kingdom, Satan is loosed from his prison to deceive the nations one more time. And in this last post millennial rebellion it says that the deceived nations will surround Jerusalem "and the camp of the saints" .

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"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

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And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire ..., where also the beast and the false prophet were ..." (Rev. 20:7-10a)

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The "camp of the saints" is still there where the overcoming army and bride of Jesus descended in the Holy Land. It is still there near Jerusalem. This "camp" strongly suggests a temporary military kind of battlement. The victorious army of Jesus camped there near "the beloved city" which is Jerusalem.This also argues that in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus came down not only with angels but with all His overcoming saints. And somewhere in the vicinity they set up a camp which is still there after the millennial kingdom.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There's no "besides the angels" mentioned in Matthew 25. It's just the angels. If you want to be sure I "get it", address the post to me. I don't read all of your sermons. You've written in that "bridal army". It isn't in the text. If it's in another text, then maybe you can apply it to another situation but you can't apply it to this one.Like Dr. Frankenstein, you're trying to patch something together from various mismatched parts. All you're getting is an ugly monster that will eventually run amok.Setting yourself up as judge and jury instead of defendant is particularly revolting.

In the previous post I proved that with Christ in His descent before the beginning of the millennial kingdom, are the overcoming believers.This ignorant reader still wants to push an interpretation that the nations which are described as sheep and goats are all the brothers of Christ. So he writes: In the verses expounded in Matthew 25:31-46 there is no explicit mention of many things:This poster does not want to believe that any " one of these the least of My brothers " could refer to anyone else except the very people Christ is judging.As far as I am concerned, anyone who wishes to cling to this kind of interpretation may do so. There are probably worst things one could be mistaken about. I have given ample explanation in probably several posts now showing why I don't interpret the passage that way.Anyone complaining about long sermons that he doesn't want to read will not understand the sound logic of my explanations anyway. No need to try to help them. Anyone wanting to adopt that brothers of Christ are going into the eternal fire or brothers of Christ didn't know that other brothers of Christ were virtually Christ Himself by association, can go learn from the many false teachings of ringo.You all who want to believe those things go follow ringo's opinion. I don't care if you do. Revelation 19 proves some overcoming saints come with Christ in His second coming. First Thessalonians 3:13 proves saints come with Christ in His second coming. Jude 14 proves that "myriads of His saints" come with Christ in His second coming.Arguing that all aspects of Christ's second coming must be specifically mentioned in ANY passage on Christ's second coming is a false requirement imposed by a desperate dogmatism.This concerns the interpretation of any of "these the least of my brothers".By this time that Christ comes with His saints, the saints have been judged by Christ already. And based upon that judgment decision has been MADE already WHICH of His saints will be rewarded to accompany Him down and WHICH of His saints will be disciplined to NOT be allowed to accompany Him down.That judgment seat of Christ has already taken place above the earth, after the rapture of the saints of the church. I will not at this time write a lot about this taking up of the saints in rapture. I will only indicate THREE passages which show a judgment BY Christ of those who are His own redeemed and saved saints: 1.) Paul, as a representative apostle and worker for Jesus says he desires to present every believing person FULL GROWN in Christ -

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"[Christ] Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; For which I also labor, struggling according to His operation which operates in me in power." ( Colossians 1:28,29)

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I wish I could write the entire chapter one. But here we see a Christian apostles laboring not only that people get saved, but that people GROW spiritually into MATURITY - ie. "full-grown in Christ" .Who is the every man Paul is speaking of ? Going back to verse we see plainly that Paul is not speaking of every man in the world. He is speaking of every man in the "Body of Christ" , the Christian church.

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I now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and fill up my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body, which is the church:

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Even the densest who hates to read "sermons" should be able to get this. Paul labors upon the saved saints in "the Body, which is the CHURCH" to present everyone under his ministry "full-grown in Christ" .All saints will be PRESENTED before Christ to be examined. And the factor of their spiritual growth in Christ is the issue. Paul wants all those he ministers to be found mature. As a representative Christian worker the same principle should apply to all others too.Where is this examination to take place? Before what is called the bema seat of Christ which is also the judgment seat of God.Compare:

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" But you, [Christians in Rome] why do you judge your brother ? For we [including Paul himself] will all stand before the judgment seat of God ... So then each one of us [disciples of Jesus] will give an account concerning himself to God." (see Romans 14:10-12)

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" For we [including Paul himself] must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad. Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persaude men ... " (2 Cor. 5:10,11a)

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The judgment seat of God is the judgment seat of Christ.
Christ is God incarnate as a man.Each Christian, will appear before the judgment seat of Christ - the judgment seat of God to give an account of his or her CHRISTIAN life.As far as their judgment concerning eternity, they were all already judged on CALVARY on the cross of Jesus.You may notice how a poster repeatedly asks me personally the question if I am exempt from God's judgement. He persists in doing this although I made it clear more than once, both voluntarily and in response to request. I as a Christians am judged for my Christian life before the judgment seat of Christ.As to my personal judgment in the issue of eternal redemption or eternal perdition, I was JUDGED in Christ in His cross. The matter of my eternal salvation was solved when I was judged in the my co-death with Christ on His cross some 2,000 years ago.And the exact same refers to ANYONE who believes in Jesus Christ the Lord.
The exact same refers to ANYONE who has believed into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. As far as eternal redemption is concerned substitution has taken place. They were JUDGED on the cross of Jesus on Calvary.Let me make this as clear as possible. If before you, whoever you are, started to read this post, decide that you want to believe in Jesus the Son of God and you receive Him as your Lord and Savior, while reading this post, by the time you reach the end, believing INTO Jesus Christ has saved you forever from eternal perdition.Being JOINED to Christ through faith has caused you to be co-judged for your sins when Jesus died FOR you.So, back now to Matthew 25:31-46. This portion of Matthew 25 continues from all the prophetic predictions given in Matthew chapter 24. It is not divorced from it as if it had nothing to do with it.Chapter 25 is either parable or teaching or both concerning many things already spoken by Jesus in the previous chapter 24. And that chapter is all about His second coming.Matthew 24:1 through 25:30 are various words about the second coming of Jesus. The portion under discussion, 25:31-46 is really the conclusion of this long section dealing with the second coming of Christ.Ringo's handwaving "But this is not mentioned, and that is not mentioned, and the other is not mentioned" is simply his device to try to isolate the passage from its context that he may press his kind of interpretation.One final word on this post. When any poster labors to write a long explanation which is followed by some troll like few grumbling and complaining words, it is usually a sign that the complaining is not too serious.Don't be surprised if this post is followed by a few little grumbling and complaining words, quite easy to spout off, trying without careful discussion, just dismissing this or that.Those are just little mini-diatribes - pseudo trollish in nature. The writer is not that serious to really discuss the issue. Some readers probably see the soundness of my explanation. Lazy readers certainly will still not get anything. Complaints like this are usually only used by people who talk about "context" only when such talk helps their viewpoint. Otherwise, the tactic is to isolate passages to insure that the interpretation of scripture with scripture can be objected to. I don't know what ringo means by this. The Bible speaks of God's judgments. It is our task to read and interpret these passages.Anyone who wants to follow ringo's way of interpreting Matthew 25:31-46, please go off and learn from ringo. This doesn't bother me.It is Okay with me, really. Go believe what he writes about it. I think my explanation of this passage is better though.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ringo, I think you should just continue to believe and teach what you do.
I am not laboring for you to "get" anything any longer.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It isn't about what we "want" to believe. It's about what the test says. On the contrary, the only dogmatism here is the insistence that everything must fall in line with a preconceived interpretation of the Revelation, even if you have to contradict the text under consideration to showhorn it in. Then why aren't you judged by the same standard (at the same trial) as everybody else? When somebody writes a long sermon that contradicts his own text, it doesn't take many words to point out the contradiction. Taking passages in their own context is sound scholarship, regardless of the subject. Duct-taping unrelated passages together into one mess is not. Nobody needs to learn anything from me. They can read for themselves what the Bible says.

Again you miss the point. You keep addressing my points and even naming me in posts that are not linked to the post you are criticizing. That makes it look like a) you're a sloppy poster whose thought processes within the post may be as sloppy as your structuring of the thread, or b) you're deliberately trying to avoid a discussion.Anywhere you attack me I'll find you but you don't have to be afraid to address me directly.

You write in your style and I'll write in my style.I don't HAVE to address you directly.
And I will refer to points made by you if I wish.
I don't HAVE to mention your name.Only the truth is important to me here and not who said what.
Forum rules have been taken down for some reason anyway.

In Matthew 24 (the same speech as Matthew 25) Jesus told the parable of the talents. The servant who did not use his resources and abilities to their full potential was condemned.The links between posts are a resource that should not be squandered.

Does Matthew 25:30 concerning one of the Lord's servants, insist on eternal perdition as a punishment. I believe no is the answer. Being cast into the "outer darkness" could well be within the bounds of what Paul warned the saved Christians -

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"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

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The unprofitable servant in Matthew 25 is suffering loss. Had Christ meant to mean eternal perdition He could have used the same phrase as means "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:41,46.Some may regard the usage of a different phrase "outer darkness" as coincidental. Others regard it as deliberate and revealing a discipline which is other than the eternal punishment.The servant of the Lord Jesus suffers loss, but he himself is eventually saved yet so as through fire. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.